Reply to: Moving to Germany er maybe. Keeping options open?

[darrenb]

You know the market is good in the UK right now. That is normal in the March-May period.

I'm wondering if Germany has the same kind of seasonal variations? I.e. booming in April and dead in December.

[darrenb]

That's different, that isn't going to work. German companies don't employ freelancers directly normally, they work through agencies, as in the UK. You need to find the agencies and consultancies that work with freelancers, and then obviously you wouldn't be dealing with HR.

If you were to approach a company for a contract where they normally employ permanent staff, then I could imagine they'd fob you off on to the HR dept, and then the HR dept will probably say no, unless there were exceptional circumstances.

All true. In this case the HR department claimed they had "lots of contracts" so I thought "OK maybe Germany is different" and I let them lead me on for a bit, but it turned out they were just playing with me. HR people do that.

Personally I would prefer to pick which company I would like to work with and apply to it directly (as a freelancer that is, not a wageslave!) I don't like the agency system. But I accept we do not live in an ideal world. Not even in Germany apparently.

[BlasterBates]

Good to hear that. I once wrote to the management of a German software company looking for a contract, and they put me through HR who wasted a lot of my time and then killed me. Always wondered if I made a mistake somewhere. Maybe I should have refused to deal with HR, and continued to address the management.

That's different, that isn't going to work. German companies don't employ freelancers directly normally, they work through agencies, as in the UK. You need to find the agencies and consultancies that work with freelancers, and then obviously you wouldn't be dealing with HR.

If you were to approach a company for a contract where they normally employ permanent staff, then I could imagine they'd fob you off on to the HR dept, and then the HR dept will probably say no, unless there were exceptional circumstances.

[darrenb]

Most of my work is through software houses or consultancies and even when dealing direct with a company I have never, ever had to deal with HR here.

Good to hear that. I once wrote to the management of a German software company looking for a contract, and they put me through HR who wasted a lot of my time and then killed me. Always wondered if I made a mistake somewhere. Maybe I should have refused to deal with HR, and continued to address the management.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Out of interest what's the nearest equivalent in the UK to this "Freiberufler" status? Self employed sole trader?

I guess self-employed sole trader who is a consultancy rather than a business. I stand ready to be corrected here.

Strangely, the French make a distinction too between differenct types of self-employed people: you can be a farmer, an "artisan" (you make, install, or fix things), a commercial trader (you buy and sell things), or Profession Libérale (you sell your knowledge).

Of course the UK makes a distinction too: sod off we want you in PAYE not self-employed so we'll hound you until you give up, and if you don't then your clients will, out of justifiable fear that we will do them for your tax.

[darmstadt]

By the way, as a Freiberufler, are you still expected to deal with HR as an employee would, or is it more usual to deal with the business directly? I've already had one bad experience with a German HR department blocking me from a position that fit my skills exactly, and would like to avoid them if at all possible.

As BB has stated its very much like the UK in that you'll probably go through an agency although I have found that there is more paperwork to sign, even from the companies side. One bit of paper I recall signing a number of times was for contracts over 6 months to state that I would not consider myself an employee of the company after that period of time and ask for such things as holiday pay or redundancy as in Germany if you worked for a company for more than 6 months you could be considered an employee.

Most of my work is through software houses or consultancies and even when dealing direct with a company I have never, ever had to deal with HR here.

[TykeMerc]

No just the purchasing or contracts department. Normally you work through an Agency. No different to the UK really, just it happens to be the most tax efficient solution to work as a "Freiberufler".

Out of interest what's the nearest equivalent in the UK to this "Freiberufler" status? Self employed sole trader?

[BlasterBates]

By the way, as a Freiberufler, are you still expected to deal with HR as an employee would, or is it more usual to deal with the business directly? I've already had one bad experience with a German HR department blocking me from a position that fit my skills exactly, and would like to avoid them if at all possible.

No just the purchasing or contracts department. Normally you work through an Agency. No different to the UK really, just it happens to be the most tax efficient solution to work as a "Freiberufler".

[darrenb]

By the way, as a Freiberufler, are you still expected to deal with HR as an employee would, or is it more usual to deal with the business directly? I've already had one bad experience with a German HR department blocking me from a position that fit my skills exactly, and would like to avoid them if at all possible.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Okay, I did it over 20 years ago and I think things have got a bit easier since then. I was also staying in a hotel when I registered and used the company office as my address (this was a permie position) and when you do get a place you will have to register that at the relevant Amt. For the bank account I had to show passport, work contract and Aufenhaltserlaubnis (which is no longer required if you're an EU citizen.)

If you're contracting in Darmstadt have you looked at the Prinz Heinrich apartments to stay in?

Looks good but I have my accommodation sorted, thanks.

[darmstadt]

Not exactly: I don't have a fixed address yet (staying in hotels) so I can't register as a resident, because I'm not. But I still have to register for tax. So I gave my hotel address but added my Steuerberater's address for communication. However the Darmstadt Steueramt noted that my hotel wasn't actually in Darmstadt, so they sent the file to the Langen Steueramt because that's where I "live". Meanwhile the next week I was in a different hotel.... so it's only been a month and it's time to invoice now, but still no Steuernummer.

OTOH a bank account was easy to open: just passport and driving licence (counterpart w/ home address).

Okay, I did it over 20 years ago and I think things have got a bit easier since then. I was also staying in a hotel when I registered and used the company office as my address (this was a permie position) and when you do get a place you will have to register that at the relevant Amt. For the bank account I had to show passport, work contract and Aufenhaltserlaubnis (which is no longer required if you're an EU citizen.)

If you're contracting in Darmstadt have you looked at the Prinz Heinrich apartments to stay in?

[darrenb]

Thanks BB, IF et al, that clears things up. What I was worried about was that I would run into a situation where a company says, "You're marvellous, we'd like you to start tomorrow, hang on, you're not even registered to work?" But I guess that won't be a problem.

Even though I will only be working 3-6 months, I suppose I will pay taxes in Germany. They are just more deserving. Nobody in Germany voted for Gordon Brown to lead (actually nobody in the UK did either but never mind that).

[Ignis Fatuus]

That is the amazing thing about the Freiberufler....there is no red tape.

I'm new to this in Germany but the feeling is familiar from being a contractor in France for years: Profession Libérale, you just do it. After all these years of learning to distinguish carefully between me and my Ltd Co, it comes a relief to just get a job and do it. Why does the UK make it so difficult?

[Ignis Fatuus]

You can't get a bank account without a job, you can't get a job without a bank account (well you can but its not easy.) In order to do any of those things you need a permanent residence for which you'll need to be registered for which you'll need an address for which you'll need a job (the landlord will probably want to see your contract or payslip.) To register as a Freiberufler with the Finanzamt you'll need a job, ad infinitum....

Get a contract first and then it'll be plain sailing

Not exactly: I don't have a fixed address yet (staying in hotels) so I can't register as a resident, because I'm not. But I still have to register for tax. So I gave my hotel address but added my Steuerberater's address for communication. However the Darmstadt Steueramt noted that my hotel wasn't actually in Darmstadt, so they sent the file to the Langen Steueramt because that's where I "live". Meanwhile the next week I was in a different hotel.... so it's only been a month and it's time to invoice now, but still no Steuernummer.

OTOH a bank account was easy to open: just passport and driving licence (counterpart w/ home address).

[BlasterBates]

No don't do anything until you get a contract, no point.

As a freiberufler everything is done as a private person, so actually you don't have to register anything other than yourself as a private person. Once you start filling out VAT returns they'll then lumber into action and give you a different tax code, but that's their job.

That is the amazing thing about the Freiberufler....there is no red tape. There isn't even any regulations about how to do a P&L satetment, your only legal obligation is to fill in your income in a single box on the tax form, that's it, of course it is normal to hand in a set of accounts with it, but this isn't obligatory, though if you didn't they probably would ask for them.

A quirk of German law that goes back a couple of hundred years, that lawyers and doctors are "free".

It's not like registering a Germany co, which is full of red tape, and which don't do or registering a self-employed tradesman (which you don't do because of an additional tax) which is comparable in the UK to a sole trader.

Sometimes though they query your status as a freieberufler, and lets say you just filled out the box on the tax form, then they probably would, which is why it's best to get an accountant to handle any queries.

Wait until you get the contract, then open a private account and a business accountant, and find a "steuerberater", then after a month send an invoice in your own name eg Joe Bloggs to your business bank account. At some point your accountant will start to send VAT returns to the Finanzamt.