Reply to: An Open Challenge to "The Agents View"

[craig1]

They are a bit older than 18.

Most of them are new graduates looking for quick money. The increasing number of graduates being churned out by universities makes it easier for agencies to demand a degree as an entry requirement as well.

The number of calls I've had over the last month from kids who sound barely out of puberty is getting silly. I had one "Senior Client Executive" call me, I thought it was a woman but turned out to be a bloke who sounded like his voice hadn't broken. Another demanded that I cut my CV to two pages before he'd consider me and that he'd never submitted a CV to a client over two pages "in all his years in the job". Another professed to be an expert in my niche industry but didn't know that my last client's name was one of the biggest in the industry. I could go on.

And, yes, I am a cynical old fart

[SueEllen]

From my perspective, a lot of that comes from a change in many recruitment agencies, far too many rely on overworking 18-20 year olds on commission spamming both the client and contractor markets trying to get a wedge in the preferred supplier relationships.

They are a bit older than 18.

Most of them are new graduates looking for quick money. The increasing number of graduates being churned out by universities makes it easier for agencies to demand a degree as an entry requirement as well.

[NotAllThere]

I am new to this forum

I have attempted to help & ask questions based on my own interpretation of the issue and using my own style and personality

I can point you to 3 different examples where I have been "attacked" using defamority remarks by "forum regulars" and it has grown tiresome - this is a response to being provoked

If you wish to have your own forum, where you all slap each other on the back, tell each other how great you all are, then I suggest you - "get a room?"

if you want an open forum, with new posters, new ideas, new blood, coming in then perhaps you should think about how to encourage that and examine why most of the posts and responses here appear to come from regulars and not new people.

this is my last post on this matter, if a Mod doesn't like what I write or my style of writing, or whatever, then please feel free to say something, ban me whatever. otherwise, I suggest you Mod wanna-bes should go back to looking for work or calling TAV?

You rang?

Join a forum.
Post a few "controversial" posts.
Pick fights with the regulars/old hands.
Complain because the board culture won't change to fit what you think it should be.
Flounce.

Ban you? You'll have to do better than merely slightly tiresome.

[craig1]

Back in 1998 when I started contracting through to 2005 (ish), I never got one single CV passed onto a client without first meeting someone from the agency. A few of them were very candid that they'd been burned by contractors with problems from outright rudeness to massive hygiene issues when they'd sent on otherwise excellent candidates' CVs to clients without meeting them.

Since 2005 though I've only had two agencies insist on a face-to-face before putting me forward.

From my perspective, a lot of that comes from a change in many recruitment agencies, far too many rely on overworking 18-20 year olds on commission spamming both the client and contractor markets trying to get a wedge in the preferred supplier relationships. If an agency takes 3-5 days from contacting a contractor to arranging a meeting then preparing a top-end covering note/pitch for that contractor then they're going to struggle in today's market.

I would not do a recruitment consultant's job for any money. It's like hell-desk work but lower satisfaction.

[The Agents View]

Tip of the day_

If you support option 1
Dont apply for a job managing a recruitment agency

Quite.....

I love the theory of option 1 - I wish it were possible, but it's not, so contractors really need to learn how to play the game, rather than moaning about it......

[DodgyAgent]

WRT this Thread: http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...rtising-2.html

And in order to restore the confidence of human (well, contractor) kind in your business. I challenge you thus!

OPTION 1

1. Post a contact number for yourself
2. Discuss the personal requirement of each contractor that calls you
3. Review & give constructive feedback on their CV
4. Meet each candidate face to face for 30 minutes
5. Call all your existing clients and sell the conractor's skill set to them
6. Feed back to each candidate - minimum weekly with progress
7. Take them out for lunch, get to know their kids etc

OPTION 2

Or alternatively, you could just put "Project Manager" in a search engine, pick the first 3 CV's that seem "OK" and spend the rest of the day cold calling IT Directors/Managers trying to get yourself seen/past their existing PSL.

Which option will TAV go for do we think?

Tip of the day_

If you support option 1
Dont apply for a job managing a recruitment agency

[d000hg]

Please explain your defence of starting a thread specifically to attack a poster who you didn't agree with in another thread? How is this helpful? Why not continue a reasoned discussion in the original thread?

Also, what's your problem with forum members seeking to protect their forum community? Your logic seems to suggest if I witness someone doing something illegal in real life, I shouldn't intervene because I'd be "playing policeman". It's forum policy not to start threads like this, and that non-General forums are not for petty bickering... on which note I will consider my point made and let you get on with it rather than argue further.

[The Agents View]

I am new to this forum

Yes, yes you are, and so far you've contributed to a couple of threads, and started your own, all of which have ended in you being "attacked". Ever think maybe its you, rather than the rest of the forum?

I have attempted to help & ask questions based on my own interpretation of the issue and using my own style and personality

No - you've made a personal challenge to me, which I have answered and tried to educate you on......unfortunately, you've decided to argue about your perceived status on this forum.... Confused? Yes, me too....

I can point you to 3 different examples where I have been "attacked" using defamority remarks by "forum regulars" and it has grown tiresome - this is a response to being provoked

Your tone is sarcastic, and your "personality" defamatory - there is a difference between advising, and trying to impart your (slightly twisted) views.

If you wish to have your own forum, where you all slap each other on the back, tell each other how great you all are, then I suggest you - "get a room?"

if you want an open forum, with new posters, new ideas, new blood, coming in then perhaps you should think about how to encourage that and examine why most of the posts and responses here appear to come from regulars and not new people.

We want a forum where views are expressed freely, but blatant attacks, closed mindedness, and inflammatory behaviour, are not the way to go about this. Listen and advise - you seem to just be advising. There's an age old recruitment saying - "two ears, one mouth" - think about it and apply it to what you type - you're applying 2 eyes, 8 fingers and two thumbs (unless you're from Swindon, in which case these numbers can vary).

this is my last post on this matter, if a Mod doesn't like what I write or my style of writing, or whatever, then please feel free to say something, ban me whatever. otherwise, I suggest you Mod wanna-bes should go back to looking for work or calling TAV?

How pleasant of you - in times where a number of people are struggling to find work, you draw their attention to it - I bet you're a real charmer in real life too.....

[monobrow]

Grow up. You posted a thread in a serious forum deliberately to antagonise another member, one who has put considerable time and effort into explaining and defending agency behaviour to a community who don't really like agents. We might not all agree with or like what he says, but that's not the point. Not that you'd know that because you steam in here all high & mighty.

And if you value quality rather than quantity of posts, what's your excuse?

I am new to this forum

I have attempted to help & ask questions based on my own interpretation of the issue and using my own style and personality

I can point you to 3 different examples where I have been "attacked" using defamority remarks by "forum regulars" and it has grown tiresome - this is a response to being provoked

If you wish to have your own forum, where you all slap each other on the back, tell each other how great you all are, then I suggest you - "get a room?"

if you want an open forum, with new posters, new ideas, new blood, coming in then perhaps you should think about how to encourage that and examine why most of the posts and responses here appear to come from regulars and not new people.

this is my last post on this matter, if a Mod doesn't like what I write or my style of writing, or whatever, then please feel free to say something, ban me whatever. otherwise, I suggest you Mod wanna-bes should go back to looking for work or calling TAV?

[MaryPoppins]

Grow up. You posted a thread in a serious forum deliberately to antagonise another member, one who has put considerable time and effort into explaining and defending agency behaviour to a community who don't really like agents. We might not all agree with or like what he says, but that's not the point. Not that you'd know that because you steam in here all high & mighty.

And if you value quality rather than quantity of posts, what's your excuse?

WDS.

Well done TAV for bothering to answer such bilge.

[The Agents View]

WRT this Thread: http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...rtising-2.html

And in order to restore the confidence of human (well, contractor) kind in your business. I challenge you thus!

OPTION 1

1. Post a contact number for yourself
2. Discuss the personal requirement of each contractor that calls you
3. Review & give constructive feedback on their CV
4. Meet each candidate face to face for 30 minutes
5. Call all your existing clients and sell the conractor's skill set to them
6. Feed back to each candidate - minimum weekly with progress
7. Take them out for lunch, get to know their kids etc

OPTION 2

Or alternatively, you could just put "Project Manager" in a search engine, pick the first 3 CV's that seem "OK" and spend the rest of the day cold calling IT Directors/Managers trying to get yourself seen/past their existing PSL.

Which option will TAV go for do we think?

Intruiging.

Firstly, allow me to thank you for being so direct and in your face about your issues with agents, and for making me a little bit famous.

I'll try to answer your points one by one.

1) Contact details are available to those who ask for them through the forum - I try to limit those whom I reveal my identity to, as I joined this forum to provide an impartial, informative view, which I hope is of use to the interim world.

2) Doing the above, opening myself up to a barrage of calls, is not the way to make the service I offer more efficient - it would make it worse - there's only so much I can do in a day!

3) I do this anyway.

4) I try to do this for everyone who I put forward to be interviewed, but it's not always practical. This is especially true for roles a very long way from my geographical location (glasgow etc!).

5) I have approximately 18 current clients, and a number of pipeline clients, who I speak with regularly. So you are suggesting that I should make a minimum of 18 calls for every candidate who ever calls me up, market their skill set, meet them for 30 minutes plus travel (say an hour) and juggle that with incoming requirements, strategic positioning, marketing my services, contributing to industry discussions in order to keep my knowledge up, network through some of the most rugged economic terrain this country has ever known? Is there anything else? Perhaps I could make a cup of tea in the nanosecond left over of the 24hr day? Do you live in a world where time has no relevance or something??

6) For those who I hand pick to market (on the basis of having a saleable, relevant skill set, I do this, but for me to justify it, I have to be able to see the end sale - what is going to drive the client to take notice of what I have to say.

7) I hand pick my relationships in order to build mutual business benefit - I have a number of examples of people whom I have met at their houses, I don't just know about their kids, I KNOW their kids and they know me.

Option 2

Some points to consider:

Using a search engine, filters out the people who are totally irrelevant.

It is not intelligent, so if I search for "project manager" I get anyone who has mentioned a project manager in their CV. When it comes to mailshots etc, we'd love to take the time to read every CV and make sure the content is relevant to the recipient, but it's not practical.

As for finding the CV's which look "OK" - since when did "OK" sell?? You find the people who I can envisage delivering what I need. This takes the form of speaking to them and understanding their background and experience. Now I've been around a long time, and I accept that certain people who operate in this industry don't operate like that (i.e. have any understanding). What I personally then do, is formulate a delivery story to present to the client, backed up by a reference or a quotation. When that is presented to the client, there's little in the way of reason for them not to interview that person.

The thing you have to understand about PSL's are that they are PREFERRED suppliers - not EXCLUSIVE suppliers. There's a difference - there's ALWAYS a way past a PSL because they're fundamentally flawed. People will buy what they need - if I have it they'll buy it from me - if I don't and a member of the PSL does, they'll buy it from them. If we both have it, then I've not done my job properly.


So, in response - I would be stupid, and unemployed if I took option 1, so Option 2 is closest, however still completely wrong.

And if you want my telephone number, you don't have to flirt around it - just ask. Oh....and don't tell my wife.....

[d000hg]

I have no doubt that all of your 6548+ posts have been; On-Topic, Insightful & Witty - apart from this last one perhaps?

Anyway, point taken, as a new member, I will try harder in the future not to alienate forum regulars by ensuring I only start discussions that you can contribute to in your quest to the 10k club.

Grow up. You posted a thread in a serious forum deliberately to antagonise another member, one who has put considerable time and effort into explaining and defending agency behaviour to a community who don't really like agents. We might not all agree with or like what he says, but that's not the point. Not that you'd know that because you steam in here all high & mighty.

And if you value quality rather than quantity of posts, what's your excuse?

[monobrow]

Well we don't have a "Troll playground" board, this stuff makes General look high-brow.

I have no doubt that all of your 6548+ posts have been; On-Topic, Insightful & Witty - apart from this last one perhaps?

Anyway, point taken, as a new member, I will try harder in the future not to alienate forum regulars by ensuring I only start discussions that you can contribute to in your quest to the 10k club.

[d000hg]

Does this really need to be in "Business / Contracts" ?

Well we don't have a "Troll playground" board, this stuff makes General look high-brow.

[CheeseSlice]

Does this really need to be in "Business / Contracts" ?