Reply to: Agencies changing CVs?

[realityhack]

A wonderful thing happened to me on the way to the office...

Agency called - sent CV, interview lined up, went well, offered job and accepted.

Only 3 weeks into the role and I find out the agency put JSP on my cv - when the client asked me to look into some script.

Erk - a bit taken aback, but sussed out the code and still with the client. Can't say it did any favours for my trust in agencies.

Anyone had anything like this happen to them?

[expat]

Not denigrating your sterling efforts in any way, but that is the heart of the whole contractor/recruitment problem.

If the agencies were to stop selling "people with x years experience in .NET, C#, PHP, Java and SQLserver" and started selling "people who know how to build a website", the whole industry would be a lot better off.

We are not warm bodies, nor are we bums on seats, we are professionals with a set of skills that can solve problems. If the end clients could be educated into buying solutions rather than pseudo temps, 90% of the issues would go away. So there's today's challenge - devise a way to undo 10 years of FUD in contractor placements.

I think Malvolio has an excellent point. A good agent needs to know the difference between the job and the toolkit.

So I suppose does a good contractor. Ever see a plumber advertise that he does Stillson Wrench, Pipe Cutter, and Solder?

[DodgyAgent]

my margins - are between 14.8 and 27%.

I chose only to work above 20% and have turned away business that’s less than that...... and in the same sentence.....but sometimes am forced to do business lower (given resources)

will happily tell my contractors the margins I work on if they ask - although it has nothing to do with them!

You were doing alright until you started the "turned away business" bulltulip. Why is it that every agent pumps themselves up in this way when we all know that we are all desperate and grateful (we avoid showing it though) for anything we get.

You guys are not NL, no one is impressed by this "I only do 20%" bollocks (even if it is true). Small wonder that contractors think we are a bunch of spivs

[IT contract agent]

my margins - are between 14.8 and 27%.

I chose only to work above 20% and have turned away business that’s less than that...... and in the same sentence.....but sometimes am forced to do business lower (given resources)

will happily tell my contractors the margins I work on if they ask - although it has nothing to do with them!

[Jabberwocky]

Too true DA, with a few more years in power Gordon Brown will do us all a favor and legislate you out of existence. In the mean time feel free to attach a hosepipe to your exhaust and run it into your car. Some people might respect you for it, but I won't.

[privateeye]

It would seem that you guys have created an idea of what our job entails and really you have no idea how hard we work for contractors.

Our ideas come from experience, unfortunately for all of us the few bad recruiters have ruined it for everyone as it causes defensiveness by those that have had their fingers burnt - even against the good recruiters.

I have in one contract worked alongside recruitment consultants as they had their own body shop so know first hand what actually goes on. A recruiter working for the largest agency in Europe back in 1999 once told me when an extension was due that the client could not pay any more but the client had sent round an email saying all renewals would be 10% higher so it seems that this agency was just increasing its profit margin. I got my 10%.

If a recruiter has nothing to hide then they should be more open about margins and practices etc. At the moment most recruiters are so secretive about the whole process that it leads to distrust.

The good recruiters need to find a way of standing out far more and I'm sure the contractors could help you do that - at the moment the bad ones stand out and have given the whole industry a bad reputation. Even estate agents considerred the worst type of agency are more open about margins etc.

Recruiters need to get back to Recruitment Consultation and not Selling People if they want to stand out from the bad guys.

And yes there are bad contractors as well - just to keep it fair.

[DodgyAgent]

Excellent point and something I have commented on often.

That's why I recommend that contractors take the interviewer's direct contact details at interview (provided they think they've done well) and bring along their references making it clear to the interviewer that these are the same forwarded to the agent.

That way, two potential excuses an agent can make are immediately negated - that you're not available (good to check if the agent rings contractor and tells them that 'the role is on hold' when it isn't because they've actually told the client that you're not available anymore) or if the agent tells the contractor that the refs weren't up to scratch so the client has withdrawn them from consideration or just tells the client that whilst telling the candidate that the role is on hold or no longer live or an internal candidate found.

The trick is for contractors to overcome as many divide and rule techniques agents can play to feather their own nests at the expense of both client and contractors. It's best that the agent knows you are doing this too, that way they won't try it on in the first place. However, best to be polite about it and only admit that you've got the client's direct details for asking further questions about the interview not because of the real reasons why (which will only get their backs up if further opps arise).

Denny, as you seem to dislike agents so much, and that you also insist in having total control over everything, how is it you ever get an agency to put you forward for anything? You are not alone in distrusting agents on this site, but at least those who admit to not liking agencies at least have the intellect to understand them and work with them. Alternatively they have the wit and communication skills to to find their own contracts.

It appears to me that you suffer from an obsession with recruitment agencies, that must surely irritate the people who interview you. Although in some cases clients may welcome contractors following up interviews directly, they usually use agencies to spare them the task of having to argue the toss over why a particular contractor was not picked for the job.

You need to get out more and find something else to be ineterested in. Let me let you into a little secret: agencies are really not worth worrying about. If you are not getting the right job, I will bet you any money you like that it is not the agencies that are the problem... we are not that important.

DA in "not feeling very important today" mode

[malvolio]

Not denigrating your sterling efforts in any way, but that is the heart of the whole contractor/recruitment problem.

If the agencies were to stop selling "people with x years experience in .NET, C#, PHP, Java and SQLserver" and started selling "people who know how to build a website", the whole industry would be a lot better off.

We are not warm bodies, nor are we bums on seats, we are professionals with a set of skills that can solve problems. If the end clients could be educated into buying solutions rather than pseudo temps, 90% of the issues would go away. So there's today's challenge - devise a way to undo 10 years of FUD in contractor placements.

[IT contract agent]

If a guy gets an offer I want him to take it.

I've worked for two IT agencies - One is the largest IT recruitment company in Europe and another a much smaller one. Neither have differed - if a candidate gets an offer the agent wants him to take that job!!! If I need to go get more money I will go get it off the client and/or come to you to close you on a lower rate.

simple - if a client wants a candidate we do the up most to get him.

It would seem that you guys have created an idea of what our job entails and really you have no idea how hard we work for contractors.

I work in a new business division and spend 12 hours a day talking to contractors and then selling you so we both benefit

[Denny]

Pretend, just for the sake of argument, you sent a client two candidates for interview for a role paying a fixed amount, say £45 an hour. One says he'll do it for £30, the other wants £35. The more expensive guy does better at the interview, and so gets offered the role. If the agent can persuade the client to take the cheaper guy, he can make himself a third more commission on the deal (assuming he's on a fixed percentage of the margin, in this case £15).
First, he needs to ascertain whether the cheaper guy isn't so bad he would not be considered if the other was no longer available, but he knows this already because of the feedback from the interview. Therefore if the client says "I like them both but I prefer B" then the pimp is quids in. "Sorry, B has accepted another offer, but A is still available" etc. etc. It's a fine line between upsetting the client (by potentially sending inferior candidates) and upsetting the contractor (who almost never gets to find out what's been done to him) but when the rec-con is paid on commission, and knows he'll probably be moving on somewhere else anyway, what the hell does he care?
Some pimps have this down to an art form. Are you telling us you've never done this?

Excellent point and something I have commented on often.

That's why I recommend that contractors take the interviewer's direct contact details at interview (provided they think they've done well) and bring along their references making it clear to the interviewer that these are the same forwarded to the agent.

That way, two potential excuses an agent can make are immediately negated - that you're not available (good to check if the agent rings contractor and tells them that 'the role is on hold' when it isn't because they've actually told the client that you're not available anymore) or if the agent tells the contractor that the refs weren't up to scratch so the client has withdrawn them from consideration or just tells the client that whilst telling the candidate that the role is on hold or no longer live or an internal candidate found.

The trick is for contractors to overcome as many divide and rule techniques agents can play to feather their own nests at the expense of both client and contractors. It's best that the agent knows you are doing this too, that way they won't try it on in the first place. However, best to be polite about it and only admit that you've got the client's direct details for asking further questions about the interview not because of the real reasons why (which will only get their backs up if further opps arise).

[Mordac]

Think about what you're saying!!!! why would an agent tell a client you are no longer available? How do you think we make money - have a think about it. Clueless!

Pretend, just for the sake of argument, you sent a client two candidates for interview for a role paying a fixed amount, say £45 an hour. One says he'll do it for £30, the other wants £35. The more expensive guy does better at the interview, and so gets offered the role. If the agent can persuade the client to take the cheaper guy, he can make himself a third more commission on the deal (assuming he's on a fixed percentage of the margin, in this case £15).
First, he needs to ascertain whether the cheaper guy isn't so bad he would not be considered if the other was no longer available, but he knows this already because of the feedback from the interview. Therefore if the client says "I like them both but I prefer B" then the pimp is quids in. "Sorry, B has accepted another offer, but A is still available" etc. etc. It's a fine line between upsetting the client (by potentially sending inferior candidates) and upsetting the contractor (who almost never gets to find out what's been done to him) but when the rec-con is paid on commission, and knows he'll probably be moving on somewhere else anyway, what the hell does he care?
Some pimps have this down to an art form. Are you telling us you've never done this?

[Denny]

spot on mordac!

Dodgy - please let me know if there are spelling mistakes in this.

What is the point of sending a CDF and if we don't accept it say do one to your agent? Send me a CDF and refuse to send me a work doc and I’ll tell you to do one!

Don't have the time or inclination to change the content of a CV - if the content needs to be more focused I’d always ask the candidate to do it!

Re putting company branding on it - what difference does it make to you guys??

That's been my experience. If a recruiter wants changes they ask me to do it. There's little point in them downgrading it or upgrading it to reflect untruths if it results in no interview, hence no commission, or exaggerated experience and qualifications without my knowledge and consent at the risk of me being exposed at interview as a liar and not land the job anyway.

[Denny]

I didnt realise that you were quite so important. I clearly need to do more to silence you. You realise that if you stick to your task we cowboys are going to be driven out of business.

Precisely.

[DodgyAgent]

Dennyhood riding through the glen

Roughly translated your answer says:

I
Therefore, I have to work hard to try and convince contractors that Denny is mentally subnormal to maintain the status quo within our industry. Plainly Denny is a subversive and needs shutting up and this is my best way of going about it.


.

I didnt realise that you were quite so important. I clearly need to do more to silence you. You realise that if you stick to your task we cowboys are going to be driven out of business.

[Cowboy Bob]

Cowboy - For me it would depend on the client as to whether I'd take a PDF. I'd happily take a PDF with no details on but not a locked PDF with your details on. If its a new client CVs get sent with no details on.

re word - you can happily come into one of our offices and use a computer with word on it - I wouldn't even charge you!

For me it would depend on who the agent is as to whether they even receive a copy of my CV in the first place

In all the client meetings (interviews to you) I've had, I'd say that 99% of the time the client had a copy of my CV with my contact details still present at the top. The other 1% of the time they have had a bulleted list of my key skills (and I have no idea whether the client produced that themselves or not) to discuss.

I agree 100% with Malvolio, we're all professionals (or at least should be) and I'm not prepared to be treated like some 16 year old pimply kid straight out of school who doesn't know what they're doing or to be treated like some kind of used car salesman who's out to rip people off.

You don't like that attitude, you don't get my business. It's as simple as that.