Do I really need a contract?

[Boo]

They've offered me a contract, which at first glance...

...So one suggestion is that for the next month or so, while all this is happening, that I simply get on with the work, based on a purchase order from them - and invoice them at the end of the month. After all, I'm just like a stationery supplier right? They buy my services, I get them to pay for my services.

But is this safe? Or should I wait for a formal contract? Does anyone else work in this way and have you gotten on ok?

My understanding is that the most recent terms on the table take effect if you begin work without agreeing / signing terms first. Their terms on the PO may be different from the ones in the proffered contract but, either way, I would not commence until I had a satisfactory agreement signed and in place beforehand.

Boo

[maui50]

What exactly are you expecting from this review? Are you wanting to know if you are in or out of IR35? Surely you can do a quick read up on IR35 and check yourself for complete clangers so you have an idea of the lay of the land. What are you going to do with this information? Get them to re-word the contract to show you are out? At the end of the day it is the working practice which dictates if you are in our out. If the contract doesn't mention working times then it indicates out. If your client insists you clock in and 9 and out at 5 and book holidays through him you are classed as in. (rough examples and small part of IR35 granted but just for example)

Use what you know of the situation on site and don't worry too much about the IR35 aspect of your contract. As I say, however much work you put in to make it out, if you are working inside you are inside.

That would be a good first check before you go off spending time and money trying to fudge letters on paper needlessly. At the end of the day it only affects the way you are taxed as well.

Will the client change it even if you do spot problems? Some agencies won't deviate for love nor money so you are wasting everyones time.

Everyone is right, do get it checked but use ask why and what you hope to achieve and use a bit of common before doing it.

Yep - working practices are obviously a big part of it, but as I said, I noticed a lot of big obvious IR35 issues in the contract and that's what I wanted to get checked out - substitution being the biggest issue on my mind. I had a contract reviewed last year and with the info from that, I knew these were the big things to look out for in future contracts.

Thanks to advice earlier, I've now gotten the PCG template, amended it and offered it back to the client this morning. All they can say is no and I have a few weeks of potential discussion before they need me to start. The PCG version did have some clauses like control etc, which I like the look of - and the rest of it seems suitably generic for the client, so hopefully they'll bite. Otherwise, I'll have to take a view about whether to keep going on about it or just sign whatever they give me!

Cheers all.

[stillooking]

Neither, actually. - hard to believe, on both counts

Nor am I trying to sell my services without appearing to do so. - Clearly you've read the Ts&Cs, perhaps you could stick to them? Or have the cojones to be honest about it. -

I'd imagine you're v. familiar with the t & c's. I'm not sure what you are implying, perhaps I'm mistaken but I'm always open in approach and can recognise who's turning a coin.

[malvolio]

are you sponsored or just traffic noise?

Neither, actually.

Nor am I trying to sell my services without appearing to do so. Clearly you've read the Ts&Cs, perhaps you could stick to them? Or have the cojones to be honest about it.

[stillooking]

You can comment and reword as much as you like, all I ask is if you're going to quote me, you do it accurately in the professional boards.

are you sponsored or just traffic noise?

[malvolio]

I will, if I want to because I'm a professional willy waver and I don't take orders from no-one. .

You can comment and reword as much as you like, all I ask is if you're going to quote me, you do it accurately in the professional boards.

[stillooking]

Don't edit my quotes.

I meant what I said, B&C will do a quick turnround if at all possible, unnamed specialists may not.

I will, if I want to

[malvolio]

What exactly are you expecting from this review? Are you wanting to know if you are in or out of IR35? Surely you can do a quick read up on IR35 and check yourself for complete clangers so you have an idea of the lay of the land. What are you going to do with this information? Get them to re-word the contract to show you are out? At the end of the day it is the working practice which dictates if you are in our out. If the contract doesn't mention working times then it indicates out. If your client insists you clock in and 9 and out at 5 and book holidays through him you are classed as in. (rough examples and small part of IR35 granted but just for example)

Use what you know of the situation on site and don't worry too much about the IR35 aspect of your contract. As I say, however much work you put in to make it out, if you are working inside you are inside.

That would be a good first check before you go off spending time and money trying to fudge letters on paper needlessly. At the end of the day it only affects the way you are taxed as well.

Will the client change it even if you do spot problems? Some agencies won't deviate for love nor money so you are wasting everyones time.

Everyone is right, do get it checked but use ask why and what you hope to achieve and use a bit of common before doing it.

If he goes direct to the client, exactly where does IR35 come into it? It's called "The Intermediaries Legislation" for a reason...

And I'm not GRUMPY!!!

[northernladuk]

Don't edit my quotes or I will open a can of whupass on you!!!.

It's Friday, you should know that Mal is super crankey on a Friday, well any day with a Y in it really

[northernladuk]

They've offered me a contract, which at first glance, seems to have major IR35 issues in it (substitution, mutuality of obligation etc) and I want to get it checked out properly before signing. This will take a while - by the time I get a contract review done, and by the time their legal people then check through the amendments etc.

What exactly are you expecting from this review? Are you wanting to know if you are in or out of IR35? Surely you can do a quick read up on IR35 and check yourself for complete clangers so you have an idea of the lay of the land. What are you going to do with this information? Get them to re-word the contract to show you are out? At the end of the day it is the working practice which dictates if you are in our out. If the contract doesn't mention working times then it indicates out. If your client insists you clock in and 9 and out at 5 and book holidays through him you are classed as in. (rough examples and small part of IR35 granted but just for example)

Use what you know of the situation on site and don't worry too much about the IR35 aspect of your contract. As I say, however much work you put in to make it out, if you are working inside you are inside.

That would be a good first check before you go off spending time and money trying to fudge letters on paper needlessly. At the end of the day it only affects the way you are taxed as well.

Will the client change it even if you do spot problems? Some agencies won't deviate for love nor money so you are wasting everyones time.

Everyone is right, do get it checked but use ask why and what you hope to achieve and use a bit of common before doing it.

[malvolio]

you can use a suitable specialist or lawyer

Don't edit my quotes.

I meant what I said, B&C will do a quick turnround if at all possible, unnamed specialists may not.

[stillooking]

If they insist on using one of their own, get it to a contract specialist or lawyer and you'll have a workable result in a day or two. ..

you can use a suitable specialist or lawyer

[malvolio]

Be very careful, and understand the legal side. Contracts are there in case things go wrong. If you start work, you have accepted the contract you don't like and there is no obligation to change things after the event.

Offer them the free PCG one instead (it's somewhere on www.pcg.org.uk) If they insist on using one of their own, get it to Bauer and Cotteril, and you'll have a workable result in a day or two. Don't start anything unless you have a contract you want or at the very least a binding commitment to agree a contract as quickly as possible and an interim agreement on payment terms.

Never start a gig without a clear mutual agreement. The risk is you do work and then don't get paid. That would be silly...

[stillooking]

You know the organisation well, but this is the first time you're going to supply yr services directly - You need to try to speak to somebody with influence in the clientco that can supply a consultancy template contract, not a temp staff one for a kickoff. So, you don't really want to be speaking with an HR flunky for example, if at all possible.

However, it is perfectly acceptable to engage without a 'formal' contract, but in the event of a dispute it could/would mean it being more long-winded to resolve as you don't have a written term of reference, if you will.

There is additional means to address this quickly, but as this is part of what I do for a living, I'd have to ask for a modest charge

[maui50]

I've just been offered a piece of work from an organisation I know well, and who I've worked on projects for while working for another client. They need some work doing for the short-term - I know what to do, they know what they want to me to do, and everyone's clear on all that.

They've offered me a contract, which at first glance, seems to have major IR35 issues in it (substitution, mutuality of obligation etc) and I want to get it checked out properly before signing. This will take a while - by the time I get a contract review done, and by the time their legal people then check through the amendments etc.

So one suggestion is that for the next month or so, while all this is happening, that I simply get on with the work, based on a purchase order from them - and invoice them at the end of the month. After all, I'm just like a stationery supplier right? They buy my services, I get them to pay for my services.

But is this safe? Or should I wait for a formal contract? Does anyone else work in this way and have you gotten on ok?