Reply to: Confused and need advice. Looking to get into I.T

[nomadd]

No technical experience/ knowledge required at that level...

Now who's giving the poor advice? Avoid the techie stuff and become an overworked and overstressed PM instead? Bejesus!

Techie side of things is real bad in comparison: Java JEE Developer - Banking (£300k package) London, Canary Wharf Permanent IT Job

EDIT: I'd already warned the OP to steer clear of support stuff.

[doodab]

If you are interested in gaining certifications and reasonably good at self study you can study most of this stuff in your own time and just pay for and sit the exams when you are ready. This is certainly true for e.g. CCNA, Microsoft, & Sun Java certifications.

For CCNA self study, you can use an emulator called dynamips to build a virtual routing lab rather than using real hardware. Some hardware is useful for the switching aspect though. You can put together the stuff you need from ebay and sell it for pretty much what you paid when you are done. It holds it's value pretty well because of the number of people who want it for their CCNA labs.

[wellred]

Have to agree with northern, yes poor advice.

Good advice these days for someone starting out (especially starting out late) would be unless someone has serious aptitude and ability for IT (and for much ‘higher’ level than helpdesk/1st or 2nd line support) would be “find something else to do”.

Things have been bad for years in IT in general and will continue to get worse but in those low level support areas even more so, to many Bob’s and Nigerians with certificates coming out of their ass’s (and little else, like the OP is hoping to be) willing to work for peanuts.

If the OP really wants to move to IT better working up the management structure in his existing profession and then switching path’s at the project management level (either full PM or project administrator). No technical experience/ knowledge required at that level (though should be, but that’s another debate)

I think for the time being what ill do is get a few qualifications out of the way and try and move around within my current company into some of the support areas.

[Not So Wise]

Poor advice?

Have to agree with northern, yes poor advice.

Good advice these days for someone starting out (especially starting out late) would be unless someone has serious aptitude and ability for IT (and for much ‘higher’ level than helpdesk/1st or 2nd line support) would be “find something else to do”.

Things have been bad for years in IT in general and will continue to get worse but in those low level support areas even more so, to many Bob’s and Nigerians with certificates coming out of their ass’s (and little else, like the OP is hoping to be) willing to work for peanuts.

If the OP really wants to move to IT better working up the management structure in his existing profession and then switching path’s at the project management level (either full PM or project administrator). No technical experience/ knowledge required at that level (though should be, but that’s another debate)

Getting into IT is is difficult but not impossible.

It is fairly meritocratic so you dont need a 2.1 in Computer Science. There are some consultancies whom look for that but it may not guarantee a useful IT worker.

I have found that certain certifications are very well respected. If you have a budget you can afford to lose, it may not be a bad idea.

The first job is always the most difficut and there is not much happening in the market at the moment. People are getting laid off and there are probably a couple of 100,000 foreign workers depressing rates and reducing vacancies...

Good contacts will help and you may need to work for peanuts to start...

[GillsMan]

I only skimmed the OP and read most of the other responses, so apologies if this isn't applicable.

Just over 18 months ago I was an investigations executive for one of the UK's regulators (a watchdog). I had absolutely no experience in IT, but a keen interest and a good relationship with the IT dept due to my work on the UAT team.

I was able to use that to get a 1st line support job in a fairly small team. I took some MCP and MCAS exams and followed that up with some more qualifications.

Just over 18 months later, I'm contracting for more than £300 a day. I'm not working in support, but I am broadly within the IT sector.

The point is, going perm in the IT dept at my old company was the foot in the door I needed to get a career in IT. As others have said, IT is so far reaching that with the right company, you can get exposure to the area you eventually want to specialise in, even as a 1st line support person. So it's definitely possible to go from no experience to contracting for good money (it's not as much as some people on here, but £300+ a day isn't bad in anybody's book), even in a horrific market, if you're sensible about the choices you make.

[lukemg]

There is clearly still money to be made in IT, it's just when you have gone through the outsourcing, rate's falling off a cliff, benchtime etc and can't see it turning back the other way it's really hard to enthusiastically encourage someone to choose this game as a long term profession, unless it is their passion (I don't see that in the OP)
IT is a visible and annoying cost to a business that rarely considers it to be central to the work they are engaged in, it is a tool or service they need to facilitate the work.
There is therefore a huge demand for this cost to be reduced or at least ring-fenced, leading to outsourcing of 'human-intensive' operations to cheaper humans.
Infrastructure is light-years faster and more reliable than it used to be (if also more complicated) and that will continue also. In the near future, They will laugh at the time and expense needed to monitor and maintain systems now.
ALL of these trends lead to reduced demand for UK based IT people and many experienced people chasing what is left.
There is no area (other than maybe SAP) that I would consider recommending as a long term prospect.
Find an accountancy course or junior role, trust me it will not be more dull than IT, get your qualifications and you will have access to a stable profession with a chance to progress to very high levels of a business or into private practice.
Good luck...

[northernladuk]

<stuff>
He's PM'd me several times over what he's actually looking to do, and I've given him back my best advice.

As I said, I wish him the best of luck.

Can't complain at that then. Just didn't look the best on the face of it but qualified like that then yes would go with most of that.

[SueEllen]

Thanks for all your replies people. I did actually find a careers forum with a dedicated IT section but that forum doesn't seem to get much traffic. Ill google around for another forum that isn't strictly contractor based but if any of you know any ill gladly move on.

Come back.

You will probably get better advice on this forum as there people on it who are jumping from permie to a contract. There as careers forums will tend to just talk about permanent jobs in an unrealistic way.

[cojak]

You don't need to do that Wellred. You'd be surprised at how many regulars around here are permies.

[wellred]

Thanks for all your replies people. I did actually find a careers forum with a dedicated IT section but that forum doesn't seem to get much traffic. Ill google around for another forum that isn't strictly contractor based but if any of you know any ill gladly move on.

[nomadd]

Sorry Nomadd, I have the utmost respect for most of your posts and wisdom but this is pretty poor advice. You jumped in to IT 25 years ago and you think that is good advice right now? Everything pretty basic is done by our indian friends, most helpdesks are offshore, services IT outsourced. All this compared to IT 25 years ago where there were not 'old' hands in the industry and they were gagging for new people. I think this is pretty short sighted of both the OP and this poster to compare IT 25 years ago and now and say 'jump in'

Poor advice? Getting on some training courses and starting out on his career? As I said to the guy: We all had to start somewhere. Can't see the problem with him doing some college courses and maybe thinking of an OU degree... I also highlighted to him how tough the market was, and to pay attention to what the other posters on here were telling him. I was careful to qualify what I said. And I explicitly mentioned it would take him 5 years (or more) to get to where he wanted to go...

Jobserve seems to suggest there are still plenty of well-paid jobs (contract and permie) in I.T. Can't think of many other industries in this country that bring home such 'bacon'. And believe me, I've done other things, so I know how badly those other things pay...

OP is still banging on about courses. You need experience as well as courses. If you are looking for career advice to move to IT you are not in the right place and will get attitude. This is a contractor forum not an career's advice forum.

That's what I love about the UK these days: The caring/sharing attitude. The joy in simply helping a lost soul on their way.

It's a Chicken and Egg situation. He can't get a job - and therefore experience - without first getting some qualifications. And I should know, as I'm training a US Intern at the moment; it's his first real-world I.T. experience. And the Bank I contract for wouldn't have entertained this Intern if it wasn't for the fact that he's doing a Computer Science course... And the Intern doesn't seem to complain about my careers advice to him being 25 years out-of-date.

If you are looking to jump in to contracting then you need to re-evaluate and stop thinking courses = all. You need a better, well rounded approach, go permie and learn some skills, get some experience. Getting just a course will be a complete waste of money.

He's doing just that. His initial post was mis-worded. He isn't looking to go contract. He's going Permie. So don't worry, your job's safe. For now...

He's PM'd me several times over what he's actually looking to do, and I've given him back my best advice.

As I said, I wish him the best of luck.

[northernladuk]

1. Firstly, just go for it. I "jumped" careers into I.T. 25 years ago, and I guess I'll now be doing it for another 20 years until I fully retire. I've earned a decent living from it, and I still enjoy what I do. If you never try, you never know.

2. Think long and hard about what you want to do? I.T. is a very broad church, and much of it immensely dull. The skill is avoiding that dull stuff.

3. You've looked into some areas of I.T. from your postings, but, TBH, those are parts of I.T. I find immensely dull. So be careful before making the leap. Look across the whole scope of I.T. before specialising.

4. Do what I did: Take a few courses at a local college. I did four, 12 week long evening courses. It wasn't just a great way of getting into I.T., but it was also a great way of meeting University lecturers who were teaching night-classes to "make a few bob on the side". One of those people help me get onto a Computer Science degree. I also met lots of other people who where actually already working in I.T., unlike me, so it was great to get their "inside" perspective.

5. Keep a broad mind on what courses you take. Most of the money in I.T. is still made in Architect/design/programming, and not support. Industry knowledge, especially Banking/Mathematics, is extremely helpful, so think about additional skills/opportunities that might arise along the way (I worked as a Summer temp in a bank, for instance.) Don't go for "bog standard" I.T. support stuff - it's all been offshored (and the few remaining onshore roles pay peanuts). If you are going to "go for it", then really go for it and aim high (which will probably take you at least 5 years; but what the hell, you are still young.) Work on your team skills and presentation skills as much as your I.T. skills - that's what will separate you from the rest in an interview.

6. If I was in your position, I'd strongly consider the Open University. Nice way to get your degree without giving up work. I did a few Math courses with them a couple of years back and found the training materials excellent. If I was to "have my time again", I'd do my degree with the OU, and spend the intervening time doing any work I could find that was even vaguely I.T. related (start a the bottom and work your way up, sort of thing...)

7. Listen to what people around here are telling you about the tough market. It is tough. But still, computers aren't going to disappear in your lifetime, so it might as well be you doing the work rather than someone else, right? I.T. is going to be around forever, and it can't all be offshored. Just appreciate how hard a slog it is to rise to the top.

8. Best of luck!

Sorry Nomadd, I have the utmost respect for most of your posts and wisdom but this is pretty poor advice. You jumped in to IT 25 years ago and you think that is good advice right now? Everything pretty basic is done by our indian friends, most helpdesks are offshore, services IT outsourced. All this compared to IT 25 years ago where there were not 'old' hands in the industry and they were gagging for new people. I think this is pretty short sighted of both the OP and this poster to compare IT 25 years ago and now and say 'jump in'

OP is still banging on about courses. You need experience as well as courses. If you are looking for career advice to move to IT you are not in the right place and will get attitude. This is a contractor forum not an career's advice forum. If you are looking to jump in to contracting then you need to re-evaluate and stop thinking courses = all. You need a better, well rounded approach, go permie and learn some skills, get some experience. Getting just a course will be a complete waste of money.

[wellred]

It was actually a shade under 4k but yeah you are right. I was looking around at other institutions that offer classes in the same topics and I found one very close to where I work that does the same ones individually. They offer some discount if you take more than 1. Eg. a+ and mcse = 1650. CCNA = 750. So both those combined are still £1500 cheaper than that Just IT place. Im shocked how they would try to rip someone off with those prices.

I done a few modules in networking in my degree at uni. If im being honest I don't remember any of it but I fully intend to do plenty of reading before actually starting the course.

Also why is the A+ not worth taking now? Apologies for the noob questions. Your input is greatly appreciated!

edit: thanks for that link! £350 is a damn sight cheaper than £750

[bellymonster]

Thanks for the tip. I guess I just need to get a list together of subjects/courses to start learning on. I would probably b studying in my spare time outside work anyway.

I have heard a few mention Cisco networking courses but is the A+ an MSCE useful too? Those 3 together are quite expensive anyway and combined are around £3000 or more so if I'm going to do the courses separately is there really any difference in doing it via these people?

I realise I'll be starting at entry level but that's fine with me.

£3k seems dear to me. Having a quick look on google find lots of CCNA training at a much lower price.
These people do a 6 day boot camp for just under 400 quid..

Welcome to IT Net Academy - The Home of Quality Cisco Training - CCNA Voice Security Training Specialists

Don't know what they are like but 400 quid is a bit less of a gamble than 3k.

If you have no networking knowledge at all I would think it would be tough doing it so quickly, so I would certainly do plenty of reading before hand to get you started. College courses might be a more suitable pace.

The A+ is probably not worth doing and Microsoft exams can be easier to pass if you self study.