Reply to: IT Contractor initial contract

[slickcontractor]

If you are out of work with no means to feed or house yourself you will do anything. it is all very well blabbing on about "self respect" but people who roll their sleeves up and get on with grafting a living irrespective of what the work is are the ones who earn respect.

cant argue with that!!!!

[larson]

This is why we have the unemployment problems that we have in this country. You can make that choice and survive on benefits reasonably well whilst perpetuating the myth that all the available jobs are beneath you. You are wrong, if all you can get is a supermarket job you should bloody well take it until you can find something better! This is what the large majority of the unemployed who can't get a job say, along with such one liners as "anything would do me, I just want a job". When you actually give them an "anything" job they invariably turn thier nose up at it and say, **** that man I can't hack it, i'm not taking that tulip, etc. etc..

If I had no contract and bills to pay I would quite happily stack shelves at a supermarket or work on a bar, it is what you do to survive and I would much rather do that than sit at home getting hand outs from the government. Unfortunately it seems that people like me are a rare breed these days, most will happily sit on benefits whining that there is no job for them and expecting somebody to stump up a well paid job where they will tend to do the bare minimum to get paid.

Nonsense, when I was unemployed in the past I was rejected from lower-end jobs as it was clear from (a heavily watered down!) CV that I would be gone quickly, as much as I tried to convince the interviewers.

The actual issue is that we have a significant number of people in this country who refuse to work in the lowest and low-end jobs but those people are not - going by past (if any) work experience and (lack of) qualifications - worthy of any job higher than the lower end of the spectrum. So what do those people do? Invent illnesses, do anything possible to avoid work.

I'm not suggesting I'm above a low end job to see me through the hard times, but I am suggesting that I wouldn't take a full-time, 6 days a week, simple dull job when I simply do not need to. Your circumstances may mean you have to do that. I didn't study constantly since 18 years old to go stack shelves when I have no debt and am not milking money off the government or anybody else! When I was unemployed for three weeks I was constantly searching for work for a month before I knew I would be finishing the role, and kept at it.

How many people do you know who are worthy of so much more, but end up accepting something much lower than they deserve, and end up just sticking with it, end up in a rut? Yeah, I know loads of those people too. So I'll do what I wish to not end up like that, it is a gradual process that these people do not see happening.

[SueEllen]

If I had no contract and bills to pay I would quite happily stack shelves at a supermarket or work on a bar, it is what you do to survive and I would much rather do that than sit at home getting hand outs from the government.

Problem is unless you knew the supermarket manager or the bar owner then you wouldn't get the job as they would think you were over qualified and would be off in a second leaving them in the sh*t.

Also the benefits system works to screw people who are childless who work part-time or on low wages. So it's a balancing act depending on your out goings whether you should go on the dole or not.

Unfortunately it seems that people like me are a rare breed these days, most will happily sit on benefits whining that there is no job for them and expecting somebody to stump up a well paid job where they will tend to do the bare minimum to get paid.

Your not. I've got plenty of friends' and family, both older and younger than me who have done alternative roles like this instead of going on the dole.

I also related to someone who got his first proper job by doing work that was "beneath" him.

If you sit at home hiding in your bedroom or garage like some of the guys in their 20s on the program, then you are missing out on one aspect of networking so it doesn't help you on your quest to find proper work.

[singhr]

Sounds more like Stavros than Bob.

I was jes sitting down with Her-Inside-Of-The-Doors to watch Corporation Street on the telly and all of a suddenness there's a bloke at the door talking a lot of old cobblestones.

[DodgyAgent]

I didn't see the programme you mention, but the fact some Polish people may do an extremely good job for lesser money, coupled with the fact that some English (you meant UK resident though I presume) workers in the same business as the Polish person may do a sh!t job, does not therefore mean ignoring the English counterpart in favour of any Polish person based on a few extreme examples.

Also, most people in this forum didn't study and work for so many years to go do checkouts at a supermarket. That is for unskilled labour. There's an argument for those unemployed people to diversify, and if necessary take on a low end tech job in a technical position they are technically unfamiliar with; but do you think an HR person is going to give a high-tech person a low-tech permanent role knowing full well they'll be off as soon as a better offer comes along?

I'm much younger than the core demographic of this forum and there's naff all chance I'd take a supermarket job whilst unemployed. I have self-respect, and self-value to know what I'm worth, even in a depressed market. The problem with applying for basic tech jobs is that they are often advertised as permanent, and those jobs that you can DIY (computer repair etc) are already been offered by people at very low rates. ie: £5/hour) already.

"Easier said than done" springs to mind.

If you are out of work with no means to feed or house yourself you will do anything. it is all very well blabbing on about "self respect" but people who roll their sleeves up and get on with grafting a living irrespective of what the work is are the ones who earn respect.

[Mailman_1]

What a load of bulltulip. Someone coming over and doing a job for half the money the market is asking for is hardly competition idiot.

Lol. I suggest you consult a dictionary.......

[Mailman_1]

That's a very naive opinion you have there.

Must admit, Im getting bored of people trotting out this 'if you're good enough, you shouldnt have anything to worry about' view. Its turning a blind eye to reality.

But you carry on. Perhaps when you're being massively undercut, you may wonder why there's no one about to listen to you.

But it's true though. You decide what you do and dont want to do. If you find yourself in a situation which you dont like, get out of the situation. Whining about it isn't really going to help you. I dont know what field of IT you are in but im sure you could upgrade your skills or crossover to a sector with less of those pesky foreigners???

[Ardesco]

I'm much younger than the core demographic of this forum and there's naff all chance I'd take a supermarket job whilst unemployed. I have self-respect, and self-value to know what I'm worth, even in a depressed market.

This is why we have the unemployment problems that we have in this country. You can make that choice and survive on benefits reasonably well whilst perpetuating the myth that all the available jobs are beneath you. You are wrong, if all you can get is a supermarket job you should bloody well take it until you can find something better! This is what the large majority of the unemployed who can't get a job say, along with such one liners as "anything would do me, I just want a job". When you actually give them an "anything" job they invariably turn thier nose up at it and say, **** that man I can't hack it, i'm not taking that tulip, etc. etc..

If I had no contract and bills to pay I would quite happily stack shelves at a supermarket or work on a bar, it is what you do to survive and I would much rather do that than sit at home getting hand outs from the government. Unfortunately it seems that people like me are a rare breed these days, most will happily sit on benefits whining that there is no job for them and expecting somebody to stump up a well paid job where they will tend to do the bare minimum to get paid.

[larson]

Having watched it, I wouldn't employ an english person for work a polish guy could do better, faster, with more passion, and for half the cost. Honestly - these people think the world owes them a living.

I really don't understand unemployed people - if you're unemployed, go and do a supermarket job, go and do a temp job, go and do SOMETHING. 4 million unemployed, and 5 million open vacancies in the UK - given that the majority of you berate agencies so much, maybe you should set up and show us how it's done??

I didn't see the programme you mention, but the fact some Polish people may do an extremely good job for lesser money, coupled with the fact that some English (you meant UK resident though I presume) workers in the same business as the Polish person may do a sh!t job, does not therefore mean ignoring the English counterpart in favour of any Polish person based on a few extreme examples.

Also, most people in this forum didn't study and work for so many years to go do checkouts at a supermarket. That is for unskilled labour. There's an argument for those unemployed people to diversify, and if necessary take on a low end tech job in a technical position they are technically unfamiliar with; but do you think an HR person is going to give a high-tech person a low-tech permanent role knowing full well they'll be off as soon as a better offer comes along?

I'm much younger than the core demographic of this forum and there's naff all chance I'd take a supermarket job whilst unemployed. I have self-respect, and self-value to know what I'm worth, even in a depressed market. The problem with applying for basic tech jobs is that they are often advertised as permanent, and those jobs that you can DIY (computer repair etc) are already been offered by people at very low rates. ie: £5/hour) already.

"Easier said than done" springs to mind.

[BolshieBastard]

Boo f**king Hoo. Getting bored of people moaning about "These people coming over here" etc etc. A bit of competition never hurt anyone. If your any good at your job, you shouldnt have any problems.

That's a very naive opinion you have there.

Must admit, Im getting bored of people trotting out this 'if you're good enough, you shouldnt have anything to worry about' view. Its turning a blind eye to reality.

But you carry on. Perhaps when you're being massively undercut, you may wonder why there's no one about to listen to you.

[larson]

Again more bollocks. There is no initial period for most. It is the standard rate and it never changes. Tech Mahindra is a classic example of this. Their rates are set at these ultra low levels whoever is doing the role and for however long directly replacing a role that last year was being done by other guys at a reasonable market rate.

And I say again, they can up their game as much as they wan't but it makes no difference to the fact the roles they are going for are getting filled by someone that does it for half the money. 'Upping their game' is probably going to make them loko even more qualified and less likely to get a roll that is out for 200 quid a day that was 300+ last year.

I am definitely directly affected by the likes of Tech Mahindra in my line of work, but if someone CAN 'do the work' for half the money, in the same amount of time, and the client doesn't mind a job that is potentially a bodge, then who am I to argue?

How often does quantity or cost matter to all of us in our daily lives when compared to quality? Some hiring managers don't want M&S/Waitrose, they will settle for Asda.

Capitalism in modern terms means everybody is looking after their own neck. A hiring manager will be at a firm for a year or two, in that time get a couple of payrises after reducing costs through using lower cost contractors, then be well away into a higher-ranking job, with minimal interest or contact with their previous employer/colleagues IF things are to go pear-shaped.

This is endemic, but also a cycle.

Once companies realise their short-term cost-cutting vision was a mistake, they will likely change and not repeat that mistake for a few years. Those companies that do not change are not likely to transition from a mediocre turnover company to a large investment-worthy opportunity.

You and I both know that cost-cutting will more often than not adversely affect projects, but we all do this in our daily lives, and as business is made up of people who do the same in their private life, they'll do it in their business life if it means they can feck off to a better position somewhere else in the not too distant future.

At the end of the day I think the diffierence of opinion is base on wether you are directly affected by this. If you are not it and are happy to think you are safe then it is easy to play the 'do gooder' role and welcome with open arms. If you have seen your market drop from 300+ to 200 a day and the only roles out there mention Visa requirements then you are giong to be a little raw about it.

I have the massive rate drop in my sector too, which has made me realise that the 'fad' for now is to import staff who will work for the lesser rate. I deem it my own fault for ending up centric in one particular area I actually really enjoy. It has encouraged me to broaden into other areas that fit on top of my base knowledge, which has thankfully paid off.

Don't keep all your eggs in one basket. If you have good learning capacity, and find the right reference materials, it's possible to learn up an entirely new technology (one not so prominent in India and that region of Asia, with reference to Tech Mahindra) that can get you hired, even if you haven't been lucky enough to use that technology before in a project.

I fully appreciate it can be irritating to see foreign workers come in to do a contract when you are sitting there, but in current times money is even more important, particulary for smaller businesses, meaning the guys and gals commanding higher rates are sidelined if they do not diversify enough. This applies to so many situations of industry change in the last fifty years that I have realised it's best not to dwell on it, and concentrate my utmost on getting the next permie or contract position.

There is no one singular cause of lack of employment, at the end of the day businesses want cheaper contractors, and are willing to risk mistakes, as it saves them a lot of money. Many businesses are toe-ing the fine between operation and failure, with some people on seemingly permanent redundancy consultation.

[northernladuk]

We've got a permie Polish developer at client co - very good he is too.

My comment about polish developers wasn't aimed at polish people it was more on Stan.goodvibes assumption that Bolshie is talking about Polish people which is a little odd when you don't tend to see polish IT contractors. Bit of a generalisation on my part and the point didn't come across very well so apologies about that.

[lje]

What has polish got to do with anything? When did you ever see a polish developer?

We've got a permie Polish developer at client co - very good he is too.

What a load of bulltulip. Someone coming over and doing a job for half the money the market is asking for is hardly competition idiot.

Um - surely that is competition?

[northernladuk]

You would think it was serious competition, given the way a large section of this board post the odd piece of moaning about it.

If someone who is a professional, EU or otherwise, can get into the country based on skills, and work for a lower rate just to see them through the initial period, that is unfortunately the way the market works.

It's actually a good thing, as it means the contractors higher up the chain really have to up their game, which will not only benefit them in the long run, but raise the overall skill level.

Rubbish There is no initial period for most. It is the standard rate and it never changes. Tech Mahindra is a classic example of this. Their rates are set at these ultra low levels whoever is doing the role and for however long directly replacing a role that last year was being done by other guys at a reasonable market rate.

And I say again, they can up their game as much as they wan't but it makes no difference to the fact the roles they are going for are getting filled by someone that does it for half the money. 'Upping their game' is probably going to make them loko even more qualified and less likely to get a roll that is out for 200 quid a day that was 300+ last year.

At the end of the day I think the diffierence of opinion is base on wether you are directly affected by this. If you are not it and are happy to think you are safe then it is easy to play the 'do gooder' role and welcome with open arms. If you have seen your market drop from 300+ to 200 a day and the only roles out there mention Visa requirements then you are giong to be a little raw about it.

[larson]

What a load of bulltulip. Someone coming over and doing a job for half the money the market is asking for is hardly competition idiot.

You would think it was serious competition, given the way a large section of this board post the odd piece of moaning about it.

If someone who is a professional, EU or otherwise, can get into the country based on skills, and work for a lower rate just to see them through the initial period, that is unfortunately the way the market works.

It's actually a good thing, as it means the contractors higher up the chain really have to up their game, which will not only benefit them in the long run, but raise the overall skill level.