Reply to: How do you handle an agent you suspect of pulling a fast one?

[thunderlizard]

I don't think he's pulling a fast one, purely because he hasn't got to that stage with the client yet. It sounds like he's being proactive and optimistic and trying to get some candidates lined up in an attempt to get a role that is just a possibility so far. Hence no idea of rate yet (incidentally I believe it's your job as supplier, not the customer's, to say what your rate is, or at least take the lead on rate and terms if the client hasn't decided yet).

[Not So Wise]

What the **** difference to your rate does it matter how near or far from your home the role is? I've never understood contractors who say 'its on my doorstep so I'll ask for £300 instead of the £400 I's ask for 80 mile away'?

I ask for the rate I want for the job whether its next door or 250 mile away.

Bottom line is stick to your guns.

Because time is money and we factor in travel time as money, lets say hour and 30 min journey each way, that's 3 hours per day "working" without sitting at your desk

Get a 15 min each way journey and you are ahead by 2.5 hours per day, which is 2.5 hours day of your life that you get back.

Sure if you can get 15 min job for the higher rate then great, but for many taking a pay cut to secure it is worth it for the improvement to quality of life those 2.5 hours give

The paycheck is not the only factor for many people

[ASB]

d000hg,

I haven't been in Finland for about 10 years, but I'd done a few short term stints there. I was generally charging 600/day and expected accommodation to be provided. I recall Finland was bloody expensive. Be sure you know your likely costs.

[d000hg]

You are clearly missing the point. Clearly you will always be bringing in a lower profit than you could do by operating in such a way.

Would you expect a plumber who lives in the next street to you to charge you less to fix a leak than a plumber who lives 10 miles away?

If you take the view that contractors are an infinite pool of interchangeable cogs, and the client has a wide choice, then you're right.

But if you're special for some reason - either the skill is niche or you are especially experienced/skilled - that's not the case. In which case it's less like hiring a plumber, and more like hiring someone to repair your thatched roof. A thatcher is more than likely to have to travel a reasonable distance to reach you since there are so few of them, and charge you extra for it.

If you're a generic Java dev, then asking extra to work away is silly because there will be local guys. If you're a Fortran expert, maybe it's a different story. This thread is about a very niche skill, for which they're looking abroad in the first place.

[fishslice]

Reasons I would reduce my rate

There are 2 questions here.

What rate am I prepare to engage at?
&
What rate are the client prepared to pay?

I have worked on contracts in the same sector but for different clients and the rate has swung between £350 & £500 per day.

This swing is sometimes due to roles and responsibilities but other times its about client budgets. I would happily take the lower role on my doorstop but I wouldn't if I had to fund being away from loved ones.

On the other hand, I wouldn't take a £350 a day role on my doorstop and expect to perform the same role as I would at £500 per day.

I should add that in most instances I work with clients who have agents on PSL and fixed margins. As the PM I typically become fully aware of my costs and have yet to be stung by agents obtaining a margin of 20+%.

fs

[Ardesco]

You are clearly missing the point. Clearly you will always be bringing in a lower profit than you could do by operating in such a way.

Would you expect a plumber who lives in the next street to you to charge you less to fix a leak than a plumber who lives 10 miles away?

I ask for the rate I consider is relevant for my skills and experience. Whether its next door or 250 miles away is irrelevant.

But if you want to lose out on money you could have and instead give the agent another 100 quid because the job's on your doorstep, that's your choice I guess!

We are looking at it from different angles.

You are looking at it from the point of view of:

"Why should I reduce my percentage if I am closer".

I am looking at it from the point of view of:

"If it's closer I can take a lower paying gig and bring home the same amount of profit at the end of the month"

My cost to a client doesn't reduce simply because I'm closer, however I will entertain lower paying gigs if I'm closer.

I also ask for the rate I believe is relevant to my skills and experience, but that goes up if I have to work away from home and incur more expenses

[BolshieBastard]

It is not about what the client is offering, it's about the amount of money I need to make it worth my while. I have refused contracts before because a rate that would have been profitable on my doorstep is no longer profitable because of the extra costs incurred because of the travel/accommodation.

I'm not saying the client is going to magically stump up more money because I live further away, I'm saying that my costs increase the further away I live and as a result I need more money to make the gig financially viable.

I'm fully aware that the agent is likely to make more money (unless they are on a fixed margin) but who cares what the agent makes if I am bringing in the same amount of profit at the end of the month.

You are clearly missing the point. Clearly you will always be bringing in a lower profit than you could do by operating in such a way.

Would you expect a plumber who lives in the next street to you to charge you less to fix a leak than a plumber who lives 10 miles away?

I ask for the rate I consider is relevant for my skills and experience. Whether its next door or 250 miles away is irrelevant.

But if you want to lose out on money you could have and instead give the agent another 100 quid because the job's on your doorstep, that's your choice I guess!

[nomadd]

It is not about what the client is offering, it's about the amount of money I need to make it worth my while. I have refused contracts before because a rate that would have been profitable on my doorstep is no longer profitable because of the extra costs incurred because of the travel/accommodation.

Exactly.

I've turned down countless positions outside of London over the years as the numbers just didn't add up. In fact, many of those roles have been literally 10 miles outside of London, but the agents and clients have used that as an excuse to slash the going rate in half: "sorry, guv., but we don't pay London rates as we're not in London." Most of the time they locate themselves in places that are just as expensive as London, so the whole rate argument is mute. ...Mind you, I've had a fair few of them "magically" find the money when I've turned the role down because of the poor rate. Money must have been hiding down the back of their sofa all along.

As other's have said, all we can do is decide what a role would be worth to us individually. If the numbers don't add up, simply quote a rate that will. If the client doesn't want to pay, just look around for something else.

Mind you, if the role is offering something outside of the money - i.e. the chance to pick up new technical skills, business skills or exposure to a new industry, then I'd certainly consider taking it. Short-term pain for long-term gain sort of thing. In the current market, one has to be as flexible as possible; but still, the numbers always have to make some basic economic sense.

[Ardesco]

Do you seriously think the client gives the agent less budget for a 'local' contractor than they do for someone who lives 250 miles away?

Put another way, if the client gives the agent a budget of, say, £450 a day for a contractor, if the agent get's one of these 'I'll do it for a lower rate because its on my doorstep' types for £250, just where do you think the other £200 goes?

It is not about what the client is offering, it's about the amount of money I need to make it worth my while. I have refused contracts before because a rate that would have been profitable on my doorstep is no longer profitable because of the extra costs incurred because of the travel/accommodation.

I'm not saying the client is going to magically stump up more money because I live further away, I'm saying that my costs increase the further away I live and as a result I need more money to make the gig financially viable.

I'm fully aware that the agent is likely to make more money (unless they are on a fixed margin) but who cares what the agent makes if I am bringing in the same amount of profit at the end of the month.

[worzelGummidge]

I have a long memory and yes I have made the agent sweat when I remind them why they are a cowboy, what they did and inform the end client why I can not work through that particular agent.

[Tingles]

I always suspect they are pulling a fast one.

[BolshieBastard]

Have to disagree here. If I have to work away during the week and spend a large part of the evening on the phone whilst in rented accommodation/hotels whilst potentially propping up a bar because there is sod all else to do I'm going to want more money to cover the costs.

If it's something on my doorstep with no travel my costs reduce so I can pimp myself out at a lower rate, simple economics.

Do you seriously think the client gives the agent less budget for a 'local' contractor than they do for someone who lives 250 miles away?

Put another way, if the client gives the agent a budget of, say, £450 a day for a contractor, if the agent get's one of these 'I'll do it for a lower rate because its on my doorstep' types for £250, just where do you think the other £200 goes?

[RichardCranium]

has that helped you land a gig?

In the past, yes.

And it does get the rate negotiation started.

[Ardesco]

What the **** difference to your rate does it matter how near or far from your home the role is? I've never understood contractors who say 'its on my doorstep so I'll ask for £300 instead of the £400 I's ask for 80 mile away'?

I ask for the rate I want for the job whether its next door or 250 mile away.

Bottom line is stick to your guns.

Have to disagree here. If I have to work away during the week and spend a large part of the evening on the phone whilst in rented accommodation/hotels whilst potentially propping up a bar because there is sod all else to do I'm going to want more money to cover the costs.

If it's something on my doorstep with no travel my costs reduce so I can pimp myself out at a lower rate, simple economics.

[norrahe]

What the **** difference to your rate does it matter how near or far from your home the role is? I've never understood contractors who say 'its on my doorstep so I'll ask for £300 instead of the £400 I's ask for 80 mile away'?

I ask for the rate I want for the job whether its next door or 250 mile away.

Bottom line is stick to your guns.

WHS