Reply to: need advice quick on client gone bad

[TheFaQQer]

You're trying to cheer me up, right.

That's what I'm here for.

As they say: "Damn southerners. They've teken our industry, they've teken our jobs. They've teken our best brains, and they've teken our ideas. But there's one thing they'll never tek from uz. That's our sense of humour"

[darrenb]

Here's hoping they don't come after you for breach of contract.

You're trying to cheer me up, right.

Well they say they want me to sign a new contract, so presumably if they present that to me and I don't sign that, they can't claim I breached it.

[TheFaQQer]

Actually I laid it on the line for them yesterday and haven't gone in today. The client has been acting a bit apologetic. However, the place is run by the finance guy and he's the one making all the trouble -- most likely because he's discovered the market is down and other agents have offered him cheaper candidates since they hired me. Now that I'm out, the client will just string me along for a bit I reckon.

Still, I have other options.

Here's hoping they don't come after you for breach of contract.

[darrenb]

2. Lay it on the line to the agent - you're getting a contract within 24h or you're walking and you're going to sue them and publicise their unprofessional behaviour

3. Be prepared to walk

Actually I laid it on the line for them yesterday and haven't gone in today. The client has been acting a bit apologetic. However, the place is run by the finance guy and he's the one making all the trouble -- most likely because he's discovered the market is down and other agents have offered him cheaper candidates since they hired me. Now that I'm out, the client will just string me along for a bit I reckon.

Still, I have other options.

[TheFaQQer]

As has been said, the fact that you did not opt out in writing before being introduced to the client has a BIG impact on your ability to get paid - you only need to prove that you did the time that you are invoicing for (you don't even need to prove that the work was any good - if it isn't, they would need to sue you for compensation rather than not paying).

If you had a contract from the agency and started work, then that's the contract that is in place, regardless of who has signed it. Therefore, you have a contract.

If you can't use the agency timesheet system, then produce your own (even if it's just a spreadsheet with a list of dates) - if possible, get SOMEONE to sign the form for you. If the director is avoiding you, get a manager, or even a team-mate to sign it for you. It's not necessary, but would help any possible dispute resolution down the line.

Don't just walk - you have a contract, you are in the right, and you deserve to be paid for the work that you have done. Don't let them get away with not paying you for the time that you've done, either. The law is on your side, so use it

Best of luck with it.

[Menelaus]

ALERT: I am NOTa lawyer.

It strikes me that you've been acting under client instructions, providing them with your skills and to date being a valued member of the team.

It appears that you need to do the following:

1. Get a contract - with anyone, agent or client (the opt-in / opt-out question here arises)

2. Lay it on the line to the agent - you're getting a contract within 24h or you're walking and you're going to sue them and publicise their unprofessional behaviour

3. Be prepared to walk

[chris79]

Just a question but do you have legal cover on any of your business insurance? I know I have access to legal advice which I pay a bit extra for as part of my PI insurance policy... might be worth calling them?

[chris79]

Use the procedures on www.payontime.co.uk if they fail to pay you. Start Small Claims Court action if you have to. All of this, is for the future. You first of all should ensure that you follow the rules of the contract you signed. Make sure you give any notice required etc. if you are going to leave.

I used this website when an agency refused to pay me for leaving the job after 1 day (zero day notice clause in the first week). I invoiced them for the 1 day I'd worked and they claimed because the paperwork wasn't signed and back with them by the Monday when I started they would not pay me (thankfully the agent had signed their copy when they sent me it, so I had a valid contract in place).

I wrote them an email stating I intended to pursue them through the courts, and that they would be liable for interest as well as court costs and could have their credit rating affected.

I got an email back the next day asking for my bank details so they could pay me.

[Hex]

If you're there peforming work and discussing it with them then there is a contract. If the agency know you are there then there is a contract.

If you signed a contract that the agency supplied you with and turned up as requested then there is a contract - the one that you signed. The fact that they did not sign it does not mean there is no contract (although it would be slightly clearer for you if you had a signed version from them).

Regardless of whether you stay at the company or not, you should bill the agency in accordance with the process you have agreed with them. If you cannot sign on to some electronic system to enter timesheets then send COPIES of signed timesheets in with your invoice and a covering letter explaining you cannot complete them on-line. If you can't get signed timesheets then invoice anyway and include a covering letter explaining that you are opted in to the agency regulations so you do not need to supply timesheets in order to invoice them. Explain you will send the timesheets when you have them.

Use the procedures on www.payontime.co.uk if they fail to pay you. Start Small Claims Court action if you have to. All of this, is for the future. You first of all should ensure that you follow the rules of the contract you signed. Make sure you give any notice required etc. if you are going to leave.

If you want an end to the uncertainty then it is not possible to knock on some manager's door there and have an honest conversation with them? Is it not possible they want two people there doing similar roles?

[darrenb]

I've pretty much given up on this contract to be honest. Sure there's the money, but there's also my mental health to think of!

I predict if this practice of hiring duplicate candidates becomes common, it will just destroy the contract market as all the good candidates will go overseas.

[darrenb]

Are you opted out (properly) or opted in? (though guessing by circumstances described you are opted in)

Thanks for all the advice. The agency made a big push at the beginning to get me opted out, which I declined.

[Not So Wise]

Yes it does. Legally dubious, but it looks like the agency will refuse to pay without them, and is denying me access to their timesheet system. So while I could sue them, I'm not sure it's worth the stress of continuing with the contract.

Are you opted out (properly) or opted in? (though guessing by circumstances described you are opted in)

If "in" timesheets are meaningless as agency cannot withhold payment because of the lack (and to be honest even if opted out, without they cannot withhold payment but would make a legal battle more complicated)

Now the whole contract issue, one thing to remember, if an agency is involved you (your Ltd) have no contract with the client. Any email/verbal agreements with client are pretty meaningless, only ones that count are the ones with the agency. So pay attention to those

My recommendation is ignore any issues with client and deal with the agency, because that is who you will be suing if everything goes tits up

Mainly what you want is:

Get a signed contract or make sure you have enough written documentation to prove "an agreement" with the agency

If you don't get contract but do get enough documentation use that to pressurise the agency to get a contract, make sure they know they, not client are ones you will be pursuing for payment if it fails to materialise

Would not fuss about timesheets to much, they are an administration tool that can help in disputes between contractor/agency/client over hours worked but not absolutely required to get payment. Just like with plumbers, electricians so forth, if work is done payment is due

If you really want a contract for piece of mind, one tactic is to not wait for the agency's contract but supply them with one of your own, you don't even really need for them to sign it, just by allowing you to continue to work after receipt of it is generally viewed as acceptance, you could also draw up you own timesheets and have client sign them

[DS23]

What do you think, is this still a contract in fantasy land?

you turned up and have been allowed on site and have been given tasks.

the contract between you and client exists. paperwork is nice but don't get too worried. yet.

is this the first week?

set out your stall. you will need timesheets signed in order to invoice the agency. find out who will sign your timesheets - get that discussion going now. if the indications are that they will not sign you have a tough choice: try and save the contract through negotiation or walk.

how much are you willing to lose?

[BlasterBates]

I agree without the timesheet it gets very difficult, that's the proof that you were there and did the work, otherwise you need witnesses, and is anyone at the client going to vouch for you.

You can create your own timesheet and as long as it is signed that's OK.

With that you can just go through the usual due process of getting paid.

[darrenb]

Why the big fuss over timesheets? Aren't they a convenience for the client only, rather than a legal/contractual requirement? Does your contract mention them explicitly?

Yes it does. Legally dubious, but it looks like the agency will refuse to pay without them, and is denying me access to their timesheet system. So while I could sue them, I'm not sure it's worth the stress of continuing with the contract.