Reply to: £60 per day!

[Shimano105]

Well summed up

[SuperZ]

Sorry, this degree talk in IT is rubbish. Sure it can make it easier but it isn`t a pre-req for all companies. So many people I speak to in and out of IT work in careers totally irrelevant to their degree. What a waste of time studying. What a BS world we live in if for example someone with a degree in Forestry is chosen for an IT job over a young lad with a real passion for IT but never went to uni.

One of the most talented developers I have come across bailed out of an IT degree because they said the material wasn`t good enough, it was below him, not challenging. If companies choose to select someone else over him due to the lack of degree, that`s their loss. Maybe those with an IT degree shouldn`t be selected as they are just the average, the above average candidates would have dumped the degree for real hands on experience.

Really, who at 18 REALLY knows what they want to do exactly?

I would encourage my own kids to get a degree but would totally understand if they wanted to try a different route.

I have a degree and I`m studying again now but it is for my own interests, I have no interest in studying for an IT related degree as it wouldn`t enhance me in any way as I`m sure I know it all already, learned in a more practical business enchancing way than purely for sheer exam qualifying purposes.


Years ago ICL did a study. They employed degree educated scientists to work alongside those who were taught on the job. And the best sellable ideas came from those without the degrees. The reason is believed to be because they would try out things, instead of relying on what they had been previously taught would work or not.


In my opinion learning on the job is a much better way of learning. Healthcare workers (doctors,dentists,vets), that`s a bit different however.

[SuperZ]

A £75 a day testing job if anyone is desperate enough. I was told about it as I`m closeby but testing isn`t my bag

http://www.jobserve.co.uk/Software-T...EA736958.jsjob

[oliverson]

I have quite a lot to say on this subject, especially being a Yorkshireman

Left school in 1982 aged fifteen but escaped t'pit. Went into a YTS in office practice and on £ 25 a week. Life was easy in those days. Paid my parent several pounds in board, got my bus fares and lunches and treat myself to a ZX Spectrum computer game each week. The kind that was 50% basic/50% machine code. When I bought a bummer I would type in the listings from a computer magazine. Sometimes (most times) I would forsake my lunch in order to buy a computer magazine, such was my interest.

Anyhow, several years down the line I drifted into dealing with insurance claims. My chance to progress in the computing world, starting as a VDU operator and ending as an insurance loss adjuster, had passed me be. Or had it? Fortunately with the support of my considerably better half, I was able to pursue my dream of being a software developer and embarked upon a Bsc Hons degree (Computing - Software Development). Aged 28 I had done all the partying I needed to do, so could focus on retraining. It was liberating. Four years later I left with a 1st class Hons degree, best final year project in the school and a years worth of commercial experience. Needless to say I cherry picked my first role as a consultant with an ERP company on £ 25k and a fully expensed company car. This was in 1999. My biggest salary as a loss adjuster had been £ 12k + £ 2k bonus + company car. Those guys think they are real big shots. It's laughable really. Now I contract .NET and my rate is £ 450. This is probably the lowest I've earned in 3 years now but in the current climate when many good developers are out of work I can't grumble.

The point of this story, however, is not about what a degree can do for you salary-wise, but how, even at 28 when I started, how it made me think about things and life in general. I have some contracting buddies are very good developers but I don't regard them as anywhere near as rounded as some of my uni buddies are. By a similar token I know plenty of grads that are completely naive. The produce of a natural progression from A levels to Uni to work. I guess it all boils down to individuals but to say that a degree offers no advantages to not having one is a bit daft (Yorkshire term?) and one has to look outside the bank balance (never thought I'd say that as a contractor!).

Yorkshire Lad BSc Hons ;-)

[d000hg]

Well you guys with degrees seem to think that they are worth something. Quite clearly - and by your own admission - they are not.

Without my degree, I wouldn't not have passed CV screening for my £16k job 6 years back and got on the ladder to a decent salary.

These days when everyone goes to uni, it's a huge problem if you don't. It's not like decades ago when you old guys were young and degree/career was something you could choose between.

[BarbarianAtTheDoor]

The topic is "How much better off, on average, are you by getting a degree?"

No, I would propose that averages never make any sense from a personal POV. They do if you're doing aggregates, but why would you when planning your own future?

I also lack a degree in IT and I never found that to be a hindrance, I've worked myself up faster than most people with degrees I know, but I put down my lack of it to a series of bad choices when I was much more hotheaded.

The only reason I would personally benefit from one would be if I needed to quit contracting and wanted to move into mid-management, where most big corporations require you to have one.

I'm not proud of the fact that I never managed to put in enough effort to get it done, but that doesn't change the fact that I can prove that I've been better paid in my career so far than most graduates.

I guess one could argue though that I could be making even more with a degree, but that would go against the original proposition of averages.

It works both ways.

[Scary]

You don't need a degree to be a good software developer, it is necessary to have a deep interest in the topic and pretty much cover the same reading list out of a personal interest.

If you've got good experience you don't need a degree to get a job.

It's pretty much impossible to get a first job (and therefore the experience above) with no degree. You'll need a degree (or experience) for medium/large company HR departments or agencies to even look at your CV. You may be able to get your foot in the door by working on personal software projects (perhaps on free/open source projects) or approaching small companies who will give you the time to prove your ability (maybe some kind of apprenticeship or placement arrangement), this could work if e.g. a family member or friend runs a company. I've heard of people starting in tech support monkey work and moving across from there, but I think you'd be lucky.

[Shimano105]

Shimano105 is one of the old gits

Can't argue with that one

So degrees are now mandatory (and presumably the £25k debt as well)? How depressing.

Why can't (the young) standard industry fodder like us have some kind of apprenticeship system to get up to scratch with?

Well that kind of fits well with my argument that degrees are a bit of a con these days and the only people making money out of them are the colleges.

[sweetandsour]

<sigh>

I wish I was still young, arrogant and naive. I used to know everything in those days too.

That was before I used to read job ads, get to the line saying "Degree qualified" and have to click on [Next]. It's when you don't have one you become aware of why it would have been a good idea.

Shimano105 is one of the old gits who left school in the days when academically minded people went on to University but it was perfectly acceptable for technical people to start work after A Levels.

There has been a shift in expectations since then.

Over the last twelve years or so there has been a push to get more young people through a university education.

On the down side the country could never afford to pay for it all and so they have to borrow money to pay for it themselves.

But on the down side having a degree is now a standard requirement for young people in a competitive employment market.

To finish education without one now is like leaving school with a couple of CSEs was twenty five years ago.

[Shimano105]

I wish I was still young, arrogant and naive.

So do I mate.

Actually I'm going to apologise for that dressing gown statement as it makes me into a Cyberman-type bellend and that's not what I'm about these days.

The point I was trying to make that from an economic point of view a degree doesn't seem to make a blind bit of difference. I played a cheap trump card to make the point that I am working and I don't have a degree - because I am being made out to be a 'degrees are bad' guy and things aren't so black and white are they?

I'm not a troll (been on here since 2001!) - my personal opinion is that degrees don't offer much from a financial perspective.

If you choose to do one to enrich your life and gain a good grounding in a subject then I'd absolutely agree with you.

But back on track with the original post - if I was a grad and was offered £60 a day I'd feel cheated to say the least.

[George Parr]

Never has my rate (or anyone elses as far as I know) been based upon a paper qualification that gets you to the same stage as a school leaver.

WHS
As a mere holder of A levels I have frequently out-performed and out earned graduates throughout my career. In fact it was my desire to get to work that turned me away from the idea of uni. Add that to the income gained from working forom 18-21, lack of debt etc.

I concede that this is now becoming more difficult as degrees are increasingly becoming mandatory for some jobs, which I believe to be a crude way of discriminating against older applicants. Jobs that advertise 'must have a degree - 'any degree' are particularly irksome. I might just go and buy one online.

Oh, and Bob Shawadiwadi and his 50,000 employees are invariably graduates. Do they count in the BBCs earnings stats?

[RichardCranium]

Yeah yeah whatever....

... I'm off to work now, enjoy your dressing gown

<sigh>

I wish I was still young, arrogant and naive. I used to know everything in those days too.

That was before I used to read job ads, get to the line saying "Degree qualified" and have to click on [Next]. It's when you don't have one you become aware of why it would have been a good idea.

[Shimano105]

Yeah yeah whatever....

... I'm off to work now, enjoy your dressing gown

[jim2406]

FWIW I am glad I did a Computing Science degree at a good uni.

It has actually opened a couple of unexpected doors to me several years after graduating, since I stayed in touch with some staff members who are experts in their fields.

In the main it hasn't made much of a difference to employment salary or rate.

But, I learned some interesting stuff, had a very enjoyable 3 years, and made lots of great friends.

And , if I ever wanted to retrain to another profession, I imagine having a 2:1 would make that a lot easier.

So doing a degree gets my thumbs up :-)

[RichardCranium]

I'm always suspicious when people use the word Average in connection to Salary. Are we talking Mean, Median or Modal Salary? Because the usual Average quoted is the Mean, yet distributions of salaries are often slewed which makes the Mean a poor and misleading descriptive statistic

It is invariably the mean as most people are unaware of any other.

In this context, it certainly won't be modal; that would be silly. The difference between the mean and the median makes for interesting discussions but is unhelpful.

The topic is "How much better off, on average, are you by getting a degree?"

The mean average is the one that needs to be used to answer that question.

HTH

(Next to come are the objections regarding inflation projection and predicted retirement age.)