Reply to: Opt In / Opt Out

[boredsenseless]

Agency does not "need" all that confirmation unless you are to work with children or the vulnerable. The agent has to be satisfied as to your suitability and that can mean a great deal of things.

They do however require confirmation of your eligibility to work in the UK. A photocopy of a passport should suffice.

Bear in mind however that once they have that they can effectively find the rest out from National Insurance searches and the like.

If you don't provide proof of entitlement to work in the UK they are supposed to refuse to supply you to the client, but in practice does this actually happen?

[Lucifer Box]

Though what you say does raise an interesting point, if regulations say they must ask you before you meet the client, can they opt you out after? (to tired to go reread it right now)

No. But as you are the only one likely to object, it's a pretty moot point.

[Not So Wise]

My general policy is to get all the clause's into the contract that i really want (especially those covering payment, aka payment must be in full and within X time from invoice receipt) then i agree to opt out as it is my general opinion is if they are willing to break the contract then they probably would break the regulations as well

If the agent will not play ball with contract negotiations then i tell them i will not opt out

Interestingly enough the "fight" over the contract clause's got a lot easyer since the regulations came out as agents seem willing to agree to virtually anything so that i don't opt in

Only clause i generally leave them is the "cannot work direct for client for X time" as that has never fussed me (if i left a place i generally never want to return) and that alone seems to make them very happy.

Whats even more amusing is they generally have written that clause so badly that if i wanted to circumvent them on it half a dozen ways i could

Though what you say does raise an interesting point, if regulations say they must ask you before you meet the client, can they opt you out after? (to tired to go reread it right now)

[Mailman]

You are a fool if you opt out. Its as simple as that!

The agents will try all sorts of sh1t to get you to opt out...like saying you will be IR35 caught, require lots of info from you and sh1t like that.

Dont believe the f*ckers...never believe the f*ckers!

Mailman

[The Lone Gunman]

Agency does not "need" all that confirmation unless you are to work with children or the vulnerable. The agent has to be satisfied as to your suitability and that can mean a great deal of things.

The regulations do mention you as a Ltd. and shows what changes will be made if that is the case. So no IR35 issue there.

The regs also state that the agent has to produce a contract showing "for services" or "of service", major IR35 pointer.

If you make sure that the bit where the agent states the basis of work being sought is all outside IR35 ie you want for services, substitution or sub contracting allowed, no moo etc etc then you have a major piece of evidence supported by legislation in favour of your IR35 status.
The agent and the client would have to be breaking the law to put you into an IR35 based position.

[malvolio]

(a) You are not an employee. Don't even think about employment rights, you'll only get a headache.

(b) Payment by the agency is guaranteed, even if the end client doesn't pay them.

(c) termination and handcuff clauses are much more sensible and legally constrained in their scope

(d) Opt in and the agency carries a higher business risk on your behalf. Opt out and get a cut of their margin instead (in theory!!)

That's about it really. I opt out, regardless.

[DaveB]

Opt In / Out Summary - Long.

Opt in - you will be protected from unscrupulous agency practices and your payments will be guaranteed.

See? You have to read that document, understand the issues, and decide for yourself. No one can decide what's best for your business and circumstances other than you.

Ok, provided I havn't missed something important, these seem to be the relavent factors involved in Opting In here.

Note: I'm not asking for anyone to decide for me, I just want to make sure I'm taking everything I need to into account :

Pro's :

Protects some rights as an employee, including :

- redundancy / severance pay should the contract be terminated,
- rights of dismissal,
- rights to take holidays during the contract,
- guarentees of payment if you are unable to obtain signed time sheets or other proof of hours worked.
- The agancy may not insert contract clauses preventing you being taken on permanently by the client or imposing charges on the client should they wish to do to.

Also, when opted in the agancy must confirm on what basis thay are looking for work for you, the type of work involved, and the terms that apply between you and the agancy.

Before you start a contract the agancy must inform you of :

- The identity of the hirer,
- Start date,
- Likely duration of the work,
- Type of work,
- Location,
- Hours,
- Any risks to health and safety and steps
the hirer has taken to prevent or control
such risks,
- The experience, training and
qualifications required for the role,
- Any expenses applicable, and
- The actual rate of remuneration to
be paid.

Such information should be confirmed verbally and in writing.

Cons :

Opting in requires the agancy to collect far more personal information from you in regard to proof of identity, referances, proof of qualifications and experiance etc. This can slow down the whole process of gaining a contract or result in you missing out on the job as another contractor who has opted out has been able to move faster.

All this comes at a cost to the agancy in terms of administrative overheads and may result in you being offered a lower rate, or the client being charged a higher rate resulting in you not getting the contract.

Added to this it sems to be that opting in will have an adverse affect on your IR35 status as by default it asserts your rights as an individual employee not a business. Somthing that Hector and Co. will not look on favorably.

Summary -

Given my current position - I already have the contract rate, duration, etc agreed in writing, however I dont yet know my IR35 status - I'm going to sit on this as long as I can untill I can get my contract assessed for IR35 and then decide.

If anyone can think of anything I may have missed here feel free to comment. Not asking for a descision to be made for me, just for the info I need to make it.

[Lucifer Box]

Opt out - it will be a lot less paperwork and headaches for you.

Opt in - you will be protected from unscrupulous agency practices and your payments will be guaranteed.

See? You have to read that document, understand the issues, and decide for yourself. No one can decide what's best for your business and circumstances other than you.

[jonhoops]

Opt out - it will be a lot less paperwork and headaches for you.

Yes.


So that you are not covered by the regulations.

[Lucifer Box]

Hmmm, now I've already met the client, agreed start dates etc. Are they trying to pull a fast one by asking me to opt out now?

Yes.

Ok, maybe I'm being thick, and I havnt had time to read and decypher all of that document yet. What are the reasons an Agency would want you to opt out?

So that you are not covered by the regulations.

[DaveB]

Yes, you are opted in unless you opt out. However, you have to make your decision to opt out before being introduced to the client.

Hmmm, now I've already met the client, agreed start dates etc. Are they trying to pull a fast one by asking me to opt out now?

Agencies want people to opt out (for obvious reasons) but I doubt opting in is as unusual as they are leading you to believe.

Ok, maybe I'm being thick, and I havnt had time to read and decypher all of that document yet. What are the reasons an Agency would want you to opt out?

[Lucifer Box]

Its 53 pages. Isn't there a faster, cheaper, better way?

For a consultancy fee of £1 per page, I'll read it for you and give you my opinion.

[Xenophon]

Read this: www.dti.gov.uk/er/agency/conduct.pdf

Then decide. Simple.

Its 53 pages. Isn't there a faster, cheaper, better way?

[Lucifer Box]

Agency have asked me this after meeting the client (sure there's some rule whereby you automatically opt-in when meeting a client unless already specified).

According the agencies I speak to, I am the only contractor in the UK who chooses to opt-in. I'm probably the only with fifteen toes, too.

Yes, you are opted in unless you opt out. However, you have to make your decision to opt out before being introduced to the client. I wouldn't be so sure you are that unusual. Agencies want people to opt out (for obvious reasons) but I doubt opting in is as unusual as they are leading you to believe.

[WageSlave]

Agency have asked me this after meeting the client (sure there's some rule whereby you automatically opt-in when meeting a client unless already specified).

According the agencies I speak to, I am the only contractor in the UK who chooses to opt-in. I'm probably the only with fifteen toes, too.