Reply to: How much would it take to get you to go permie

[Fred Bloggs]

As other have said, the ability to sidestep the office politics and this kinda nonesense - Priceless. Think On.

Oh how true. And how easy it is to forget this. I also have many tales of stupidity when it comes to salaries and appraisals. In my case, I was a slow learner/scared of the outside world for many years.

[VectraMan]

I have to admit to having just applied for a permie job. Two big reasons: it's something of an oppurtunity to work for a much more interesting company that your typical corporate contractor role, and secondly it's close to home.

The salary on offer seems quite good, certainly compared to other permie jobs advertised for the likes of me. The take home pay would be roughly the same as being IR35 caught on the rate I was on a year ago. I have increased my rate since, but I'm not that confident of getting the same on another gig, and of course IR35 seems to be getting harder to avoid. So financially speaking, chuck in a few perks and it's not too bad.

But we'll see. It's possible they won't want anything to do with a contractor as they figure I'll be off as soon as the market picks up.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I notice permie employers brilliant managers have come up with another fabulous way to shaft employees that they think people are too dim to notice. Instead of getting a pay rise (ever) they give bonuses - so your salary is falling all the time in real terms and they hit rocky times, the bonuses can be cancelled and you've just had a massive pay cut (whilst they get a bonus for cutting costs).

The other thing about performance appraisals is that when I was a permie I lost count of the number of times I got a good rating but not much rise/bonus as there wasn't anything in the pot overall. What a load of crappola.

Permanent employment sucks - I don't miss it. Reminds me of Roger Daltrey in the Film "McVicar" taunting the prison warders who were reminding him he'd got ten years "yeah - but you're in here for life".

[pjclarke]

Cautionary Tale

I was a contract developer at a global bank and one renewal time was offered a permie post on a comedy salary. Once I had politely pointed out that a near enough 50% drop in take home was insufficient incentive to entice me into the Dark Side, despite the undoubted joys of being an employee, they asked me to name a salary that would do the trick. I did the sums and came up with a package based on a salary of 45K + benefits. This was a few years ago and outside London. It was thus their turn to make the polite demurral noises as this would have required an implausible stretching of the salary grading structure and we renewed the contract instead.

But next renewal time, they told me they would pay me the salary specified, I am guessing they had tried and failed to recruit - I'm a bit niche - and I took the post and immediately started taking 2 hour lunch breaks and disappearing at 4pm on a Friday ....

Stuck it out for just < 2 years before I fell foul of the appraisal system. This is based on a ranking process where your performance is rated relative to your 'peers' and those at the top get the cherries while those at the bottom go home with nothing, bonus-wise. I am sure I don't need to point out the many flaws in this approach to the intelligent readership of CUK. My relatively high salary came with a high grade and this meant I was being compared with some fairly senior people. No matter, my half-year appraisal went well and I was informed I was in line for a '3' (out of 5) which would have meant a modest but acceptable bonus. But, in the second half of the year some of those who had been graded 4 or 5 moved on, which was enough to slip me over the the line into a '4' and no bonus. even though my line manager told me my performance had not changed (in fact ISTR working 5 weekends out of 6 and cancelling a planned holiday to meet deadlines). Let me repeat that - the same performance level was deemed good one minute and unsatisfactory the next. The money involved was only a few K but it was more the total contempt and lack of appreciation that stuck in the craw, that and the fact that management went along with this complete HR boneheadedness meant I was out of there and back into the sunlit uplands of contractordom within eight weeks (well, it was Christmas) ....

As other have said, the ability to sidestep the office politics and this kinda nonesense - Priceless. Think On.

[Mich the Tester]

Erm, wild horses couldn’t drag me back to the pathetic office politics, the appraisals where they’ll always contrive a reason not to give you a puny little pay rise, being a serf to ego-tripping senior managers, listening to the coffee machine whingers, being hassled about ‘critical performance indicators’, asking for permission to have a day off and being turned down, office parties where attendance is expected, team building days and all the other bullsh*t that being a permie brings with it.

Money? I’m making about 90,000 euros/60k sterling after costs (travel, insurance, hotels etc.). It’s enough to enjoy my life the way I want to and save up for a rainy day if need be, and if I earn more it’ll only mean paying more tax. With the cost of living in the east of the Netherlands, and my wife’s full time job, we’ve no reason to complain.

My contingency plan is to pay off as much of the mortgage as possible, and if the market goes belly up I’m qualified as a personal fitness instructor; that pays a lot less, but it means I can still work for myself and enjoy life without the aforementioned hassle; I might even sod off to somewhere sunny and start a small gym. The key to dealing with any uncertainty is to avoid the trap of buying a bloody great big mansion with the accompanying bloody great big mortgage; if you can cover your bills with a lower income than you have then you can enjoy the good things in life without being afraid.

[BamBam]

Can I ask what people are doing to be getting £500+ per day and not being based in the City?

The reason I ask is that I'm actually finding market rates low at the moment for Senior IT Developers, even for London.

[Lockhouse]

I turned down an IB £150K package. Not worth it for the hassle factor alone.

[FarmerPalmer]

For me it would have to be "Hell freezing over"

The cost of the last package I had as a permie,

(i.e. Salary + Bonus + BUPA + PHI + Life Ins + Pension + Employers NI)

was a lot more than my company turnover.

However I am a lot happier in what I am doing now.

[firesale]

Are perm jobs that are 80+ hrs always really stressful?

[NotAllThere]

...The reason I'm considering the move is because the client is fantastic and I love what I do and the flexibility I have. It's great bunch of people and a great company all round really. Been contracting a long time and this is the only client in all that time where I have actually thought "i'd like to work here"...

I currently like where I'm working. But consider this story from "There once was a contractor..."

[expat]

I'd guess, outside of the City, 50k is a very good wage for a senior technical permie job. So contracting is always going to dwarf that.

Regarding appraisals. A couple of hours of your life once a year is hardly a big deal.

Being gang-raped by a gang of Hell's Angels wouldn't take long, but I'd still count it as a strong negative feature of a situation. Appraisals likewise, they have the same feel about them.

[oxtailsoup]

I'm getting £575 per day plus all expenses. I work from home 80% of the time with the remaining 20% on site at various sites (mainly London).

I'm currently in talks to go permy and the package would be £65-70k basic plus 15% guaranteed bonus
exec car allowance (approx £500pm)
pension (not sure how much)
free shares (ditto)
performance bonus (approx 6% of basic)
6 weeks holidays

And a guarantee that my role won't change... i.e. I would still be working from home.

The reason I'm considering the move is because the client is fantastic and I love what I do and the flexibility I have. It's great bunch of people and a great company all round really. Been contracting a long time and this is the only client in all that time where I have actually thought "i'd like to work here".

Not sure if it will happen yet as we are both in talks about it.

[kanulondon]

If you need a stable base then forget being a contractor, it's an inherently unstable lifestyle. Rates are far from fixed and always negotiated and when you're on the bench/holiday/sick (god forbid) you have no source of income.

One major reason clients have for employing contractors is the flexibility to get rid at short notice when projects get cancelled.

True, however I just meant my permie salary is a mare. Its up and down and I am certain that I would reach my stable base (in my head anyway) from potentially a 6 month contract. It probably doesn't make sense, but it's how I am reasoning it in my head

Understand the instabilities of a contractor and wages, but the risk/reward is far greater.

I work in finance and I am one of those whose a slave to having to have the phone on always....throw in a crackberry as well. They have me under lock and key

phuck that!

[ddaft]

Around the 90k mark would give me a big decision to make but really depends on how the client treats their existing permies. If they are all miserable as sin working crazy hours then why join them!

[badger7579]

For politics, the best thing about contracting is being able to walk away and know you aren't going to have to stick something - but then again, if you are making decent money you want to keep good relationships.

I have very rarely encountered office politics and it has mainly when I have gone in as an outside consultant... and knowing I am going to be away pretty soon makes that a lot more bearable.

I think the really important thing is the change of scenery and not having to stick the same nonsense for too long.[/QUOTE]



Totaly agree and even if there is office politics its quite easy to bite your lip knowing you'll be out of there in a short space of time. I'm in the situation at the moment where the company is going through a big merger/change and the permies are soooooo down and P****** off, I'm just quite smug