Reply to: Client treating us as Permies

[thunderlizard]

If you charge them for attending "social" events or training courses, you're making yourself part and parcel of the organsiation and hence significantly weakening your IR35 defence.

Do you really think it's significant? If you're going on all the socials and training courses just because it's a tacit obligation, you're effectively part & parcel already. I wouldn't have thought that waiving your fee made any difference in that light.

Personally, if meetings are going to be completely woolly and irrelevant to my project I don't go to them. If they look tangentially relevant but I'm not directly benefiting the client as contracted (e.g. another consultancy is facilitating, rather than me) I tend to go but not charge. But that's to do with sticking to contract, nothing to do with IR35.

[TheVoice]

Don't go then. It's probably full of zombie like company men

[malvolio]

Everything done for clients that takes away from my "time off" is chargable, dunno about others!

Agreed, but not the point. If you charge them for attending "social" events or training courses, you're making yourself part and parcel of the organsiation and hence significantly weakening your IR35 defence.

Your call, of course, but the sensible options are either don't charge or don't go.

[TheVoice]

Going back to the original point, if you do a jolly/team-builder/training outing or whatever, the trick is not to charge for it. After all (a) what you do on your time off is your and concern nobody else's and (b) not charging means you are not getting paid for doing it (duh!) unlike the permies, so clearly you are not a permie...

It also depends slightly on the role you are in. If you're a PM or consultant or techie, there' s no real benefit in doing such things. If, however, you are an interim, or leading a team containing client staff, there is a good business-related reason to get to know your co-workers. As always with IR35, it's never black-and-white.

Everything done for clients that takes away from my "time off" is chargable, dunno about others!

[expat]

IR35 is a side issue. The problem is that if they treat you as a one-man-band, it'll never cross their mind to give your company more than enough work for 1 person, & you'll be forever doomed to your low-6-figure turnover.

That has a certain logic.

[malvolio]

Going back to the original point, if you do a jolly/team-builder/training outing or whatever, the trick is not to charge for it. After all (a) what you do on your time off is your and concern nobody else's and (b) not charging means you are not getting paid for doing it (duh!) unlike the permies, so clearly you are not a permie...

It also depends slightly on the role you are in. If you're a PM or consultant or techie, there' s no real benefit in doing such things. If, however, you are an interim, or leading a team containing client staff, there is a good business-related reason to get to know your co-workers. As always with IR35, it's never black-and-white.

[BolshieBastard]

The American bank Im currently contracting at has just dropped a bombshell on us.

We've been able to work a varied work pattern and work a 4 day week instead of 5 and, only taking 30 mins for lunch instead of the permie's hour.

This morning we were told we have to take an hours lunch and have to work a set pattern of hours and still do the 4 day week.

This looks far too much like direction and control and when I queried this, was told the work pattern was to introduce a 'diligence of care' by the client to the contract staff. WTF!!!

So, Im going to arrange a meeting with the lead resource and point out they can have a 'diligence of care' but this is opening them up to being sued by contractors IR35 caught for pension right, cheap loans, holiday pay, sick pay etc, etc.

I expect I'll get my notice at the end of the project if not before but hey, you've got to stand up for some things.

[thunderlizard]

IR35 is a side issue. The problem is that if they treat you as a one-man-band, it'll never cross their mind to give your company more than enough work for 1 person, & you'll be forever doomed to your low-6-figure turnover.

[scooby]

So you are all saying 'Ignore the IR35 debate, let them continue to treat you that way'?

Surely the outside IR35 contract means nothing and its the working practice that can trip you up... Isnt that the jist of recent events?

[PM-Junkie]

If I'm at a client as a consultant rather than a straight PM, I am there to have my brains sucked out so they can do that in anyway they please.

If I am there as a PM I am invariably too busy to get involved in the touchy feely stuff anyway. If it moves the project along, fine - if not I steer clear.

....if the offer of an inter-company beer is involved of course, that's another matter

[BrilloPad]

2 Choices:-

a) Either sit them down and explain you are a separate company, brought in to do a job and that they need to stop treating you like perm staff. Risk is doing this they may not understand or agree and you lose the contract.

b) Say nothing and get on with it, collect $200, pass GO.

I vote b

[Diver]

Went on a team-bonding do when a contractor at a large pharma co..

It was for the whole day and evening and based in a large mansion. Didn't claim for it and was bl***y great fun!!

Burn him!!!!

[up4it]

Went on a team-bonding do when a contractor at a large pharma co..

It was for the whole day and evening and based in a large mansion. Didn't claim for it and was bl***y great fun!!

[Diver]

1. Hold your own Meetings and insist that all of their staff and employees attend.
   
2. Arrange your own 1/2 day team building exercise and insist that they all attend

[TheVoice]

2 Options

1: Decline the meetings & tell them to get stuffed, use the time to sleep. Then get coffee

2: Accept, attend & sleep. Then get coffee

Either way, sleep & coffee are good ;0