Reply to: taking days off and holidays

[BolshieBastard]

2 threads on the same subject. How odd!

Anyway, my contract manager requested all the contractors in the team (6 of us) to make our Xmas leave requests last year on the relevant form.

I refused and told him, politely, that I didnt think contractors should do any such thing. I was happy to tell him which days I would be off but didnt intend filling in any 'leave request' as permies did.

He agreed with me and said ok. None of the other contractors spoke up. So he made then complete the form!

Laugh? I nearly wept.

[phil5476]

Padbasher,

What is the difference between "authorization and agreement" and getting your line manager's consent?

Do these not amount to the same thing?

P

[Integrity]

Absolutely and even before day one, e.g. at selection process, you need to be talking about the services provided, agreeing periods of absence where the services can't be provided, agreeing who notifues who, talk about your company (i.e. "yes my company can provide those services too" ) rather than "Yes I can do SQL and work in your SQL team along with your SQL permies").

The expectations, terminology has to be right from day one and before.

If you do this, you find it easy to be a consultant from a consultancy and not a temp employee from an agency.

you'll also find the rates a lot higher for the same work too!

You won't get any argument from me on this.

[DimPrawn]

This is absolutely correct!

Absolutely and even before day one, e.g. at selection process, you need to be talking about the services provided, agreeing periods of absence where the services can't be provided, agreeing who notifues who, talk about your company (i.e. "yes my company can provide those services too" ) rather than "Yes I can do SQL and work in your SQL team along with your SQL permies").

The expectations, terminology has to be right from day one and before.

If you do this, you find it easy to be a consultant from a consultancy and not a temp employee from an agency.

you'll also find the rates a lot higher for the same work too!

[kali]

So on the first day, when they've not quite got things together, after lunch, do what I did.

Tell them that if they've nothing substantive for you to do, you're quite happy to go away for the afternoon.

I've done that before

[NotAllThere]

So on the first day, when they've not quite got things together, after lunch, do what I did.

Tell them that if they've nothing substantive for you to do, you're quite happy to go away for the afternoon.

[Integrity]

I often find (but not allways ) if you go in from day one and act like a consultant, you will be treated like a consultant. If you even for s second act like a temp, that is what you will be treated as for the duration of the contract.

This is absolutely correct!

[blacjac]

I often find (but not allways ) if you go in from day one and act like a consultant, you will be treated like a consultant. If you even for s second act like a temp, that is what you will be treated as for the duration of the contract.

[Integrity]

The problem is trying to explain these to permies, they think of you as 'agency staff' (no joke) and that somehow you are bound by all the same rules they are. In a way I think it's because they like to think that if you are part of the system, then it gives them authority over issues such as this, they cannot seem to accept that you are a complete different entitiy, and there is no obligation for you to follow their rules or processes for personnel issues.

It really is quite simple

1) Your Co has a service that is offered, and offers it.
2) Agency rebrands the services and sells you.
3) Client buys a person.
4) Client treats you as an individual like anyone else.

Rather like the following:
1) You sell an Astro to your garage
2) Mechanic swaps all the Astro badges for a BMW badge.
3) Garage sells BMW to customer
4) Customer drives around in a nice BMW

If the customer doesn't know anything about Astro or BMW, and don't examine the documents, they can drive around for a long time genuinely believing they have bought a BMW.

Your Co is in control of how its brand is presented at all times when you are working with Your Co's clients.

[NickFitz]

It's also worth checking the terms in your contract, If mine gets renewed I plan on challenging the issue to have it written in the contract with some terms of expectation over leave, perhaps such as I can take it when I want providing 7 days notice is given, etc.

At the risk of pre-empting malvolio, I would suggest that you think very carefully about that, as it seems to me to be an indication of Direction and Control, thereby landing you fairly and squarely under IR35.

We have very different expectations and meeting in the middle is sometimes a very difficult task as there are no rules or guidelines to go by other than the expectation that I will go with what is dictated to me?

Indeed it is... on my last contract I noticed that while I was sometimes treated as almost akin to a permy, another contractor was able to dictate his comings and goings, to the extent that he could say "Next week I'll be away every day except Thursday - I can come in then". Then again, he is one of the world's leading experts in a crucial technology, so everybody was grateful if he managed to find time to come in at all. (Brilliant guy to work with as well.)

As far as I'm concerned, Plan A is working entirely for my own benefit, Plan B is working for other people's benefit but as a consultant who can dictate how and when he works, and a very poor Plan C is being in the position where I can be treated as if I were a temporary employee.

Realising these goals is left as an exercise for... umm... well, me I suppose

[Gonzo]

I guess I am lucky then.

On my project we are all contractors. We just mark up on a chart when we are not going to be there. Everyone is happy.

[chris79]

I have the same issue where I work.

There is an expectation that I take 'annual leave' and that it is all documented on the holiday sheet etc, but I've tried to argue that I'm a company providing a service, and that any day I'm not in regardless of the reason (sick, holiday, emergency, etc) is classed simply as an absence and nothing more. The problem is trying to explain these to permies, they think of you as 'agency staff' (no joke) and that somehow you are bound by all the same rules they are. In a way I think it's because they like to think that if you are part of the system, then it gives them authority over issues such as this, they cannot seem to accept that you are a complete different entitiy, and there is no obligation for you to follow their rules or processes for personnel issues.

I also have the problem with who is calling the shots. I'd like to think that I tell them when I'm not available to work on this basis, but they seem to think it's all 'agreed' etc in advance and authorisation needs to be sought first etc. It's a tricky one, I asked my agency and they said just sort it out with the client. My client so far has sometimes been fairly difficult on the subject at times which has caused a few problems. The main problem being that they are trying to impose "perm staff" rules on me, as the majority there work to those rules, but seem oblivious to the fact these rules do not apply to me as a contractor. Also I refuse to use the term 'line manager', as they are not my manager, nor do they have any authority to 'manage' me in a personnel sense.

I guess it's a case of just go along with it to keep the peace if it's tolerable, at the end of the day they are a customer paying you a good price, so sometimes keeping the customer happy is a good thing. I guess it's a case of do you want the contract renewal so badly? I think if other things come up on the table, then maybe it puts you in a stronger position to turn round and say "I'm calling the shots here", and if they don't like it they lose your services.

It's also worth checking the terms in your contract, If mine gets renewed I plan on challenging the issue to have it written in the contract with some terms of expectation over leave, perhaps such as I can take it when I want providing 7 days notice is given, etc. At the moment there is nothing which is the main problem, it's my expectation against the guy who is tasked with managing the holidays where I works expectation. We have very different expectations and meeting in the middle is sometimes a very difficult task as there are no rules or guidelines to go by other than the expectation that I will go with what is dictated to me?

[blacjac]

Probably because someone asked exactly the same question today in another thread.

The same person.

[TheBigYinJames]

No responses? How odd.

Probably because someone asked exactly the same question today in another thread.

[RichardCranium]

No responses? How odd.

I expected lots of "Conform to those rules and you risk being in IR35" responses.

I also expected "You have a contract; that is all you need conform to. If they want to change the rules, they must do a contract negotiation with the agency."

I would ignore the instruction and if ever queried just say "Oh, did you think that applied to me? I didn't. You'll need to speak to my agency - my contract is with them, not you." The agency will then tell you you have to fill in ClientCo leave forms, I'm afraid.

P.S. "Annual Leave?" Going to pay you for it, are they?