Reply to: Notice period concerns on a new contract

[phil5476]

You cannot say fairer than that, except that I think you may be underestimating this continuity thing.

Perhaps.

On a general note I would say that type of cut & run contractor is a curse in terms of delivery. Furthermore birds of a feather party together. Where you get one you often see others land.

[DodgyAgent]

Interesting debate. As a newbie to this forum it is interesting to hear the opinion of agents.

A decision to outsource is made by people who have no visibility of the alleged mercenary contractors. They are making decisions based on three ever present criteria. Quality, time & cost.

One might argue that lack of continuity of service leads to lower quality & that this by-product is visible to upper management. BUT that is very hard to prove.

As for notice period equivalence. This isn't a moral judgement but rather one that is made by the market. An equilibrium is reached through supply & demand. Currently if someone wants me enough they will agree to my terms especially as my CV shows continuity of service in previous roles. If the economy goes further downhill I may have to compromise on this to put me ahead of the field.

P

You cannot say fairer than that, except that I think you may be underestimating this continuity thing.

[phil5476]

Interesting debate. As a newbie to this forum it is interesting to hear the opinion of agents.

A decision to outsource is made by people who have no visibility of the alleged mercenary contractors. They are making decisions based on three ever present criteria. Quality, time & cost.

One might argue that lack of continuity of service leads to lower quality & that this by-product is visible to upper management. BUT that is very hard to prove.

As for notice period equivalence. This isn't a moral judgement but rather one that is made by the market. An equilibrium is reached through supply & demand. Currently if someone wants me enough they will agree to my terms especially as my CV shows continuity of service in previous roles. If the economy goes further downhill I may have to compromise on this to put me ahead of the field.

P

[DodgyAgent]

I'm not sure anyone has said that. Have you got the decorators in Dodgy?

The wife has

[ratewhore]

My points were made in reference to those contractors who believe that a months notice is theirs by right (as opposed to part of a mutually agreed business arrangement)...

I'm not sure anyone has said that. Have you got the decorators in Dodgy?

[expat]

I have two rules in my business

Rule 1. The customer is always right
Rule 2. If the customer is wrong look at rule 1.

The great thing about markets is that they decide the value of goods and services and you do not.

Economics 101: The great thing about markets is that neither the buyer nor the seller alone decides the value of goods and services.

If either does, it is not a market.

[NotAllThere]

...I am quite sure that Indian companies have had to mop up after UK contractors...

no.

[TheBigYinJames]

Shifting the ground again Yin. I compared the value of your opinion to the markets not my own opinion.

I'm not - my point has been the same all the way through - what we can demand and expect from a contract is COMPLETELY defined by the market - NOT by who has the money, as you claim. And certainly not by agencies.

You might favour the endCos, that's your lookout.

Free market.

[DodgyAgent]

My rates have risen consistently since 2000 so I haven't experienced your stagnation. Contractor rates may have been stagnant overall because of a continual supply of graduates, thousands of them every year, entering the market. New entrants can more than account for any supposed stagnation in rates (which I haven't experienced anyway).

My opinion is at least as good as yours, and probably better, since I earn a living doing the work, rather than drinking the sweat.

Shifting the ground again Yin. I compared the value of your opinion to the markets not my own opinion.

[TheBigYinJames]

If clients wish to pay for "quality" then I ask (again) why is it that contractor pay rates have been so stagnant over the years. Like it or not money and markets are the best measure of success in business, whereas your opinion is probably the worst.

My rates have risen consistently since 2000 so I haven't experienced your stagnation. Contractor rates may have been stagnant overall because of a continual supply of graduates, thousands of them every year, entering the market. New entrants can more than account for any supposed stagnation in rates (which I haven't experienced anyway).

My opinion is at least as good as yours, and probably better, since I earn a living doing the work, rather than drinking the sweat.

[DodgyAgent]

Exactly, and I'm making a very good living out of it, thanks very much.

Your theory that Indian companies are mopping up because of Uk contractors bailing on contracts is a crock. Indian companies are mopping up because they are CHEAP and most companies are run by bean-counters who (like you) do not know how to value work done, they can't appraise the difference between a good development and a bad development. They only see golden coins falling before their greedy eyes.

If you'd ever had to work on a rescue contract where you've had to rework just about everything done by an offshore company you would soon learn the value of work, and why cheap is not best.

I was not saying that cheap was best. This is you switching the ground of the debate. I am quite sure that Indian companies have had to mop up after UK contractors. The trouble with your measure of value is that it is entirely subjective, whereas at least mine is, if the customer is happy he will pay for it (I never said cheapest).
If clients wish to pay for "quality" then I ask (again) why is it that contractor pay rates have been so stagnant over the years.
Like it or not money and markets are the best measure of success in business, whereas your opinion is probably the worst.

[TheBigYinJames]

So if you are going to pitch your services to Shell would you pitch them at one of their tanker drivers or one of their bosses?

That's a red herring. Obviously the people with the money are the ones who specify and commission the work. This gives them control of the execution of the work, but it doesn't mean the people who do the work are less important - that balance is defined by the market and it's bull/bear status with regard to supply of contractors.

You speak as if you've never actually worked in an asymmetric business relationship. Sometimes the worker has the absolute upper hand, the business needs him far more than he needs them. He names his terms, and if they're smart, they pay them and thank their lucky stars. Sometimes the workers are ten a penny and they get tulipped on from a great height.

The point is that balance is not defined by who has the money - it's defined by who is on the upside of the bear/bull. Your precious market. So you can keep on licking the heels of the endCos who pay your wages, and when the market is good, we'll keep on suiting ourselves about what we demand and expect from our contracts.

[TheBigYinJames]

I have two rules in my business

Rule 1. The customer is always right
Rule 2. If the customer is wrong look at rule 1.

The great thing about markets is that they decide the value of goods and services and you do not.

Exactly, and I'm making a very good living out of it, thanks very much.

Your theory that Indian companies are mopping up because of Uk contractors bailing on contracts is a crock. Indian companies are mopping up because they are CHEAP and most companies are run by bean-counters who (like you) do not know how to value work done, they can't appraise the difference between a good development and a bad development. They only see golden coins falling before their greedy eyes.

If you'd ever had to work on a rescue contract where you've had to rework just about everything done by an offshore company you would soon learn the value of work, and why cheap is not best.

[DodgyAgent]

Maybe in your world. Just look at the Shell tanker drivers. I think you'll find that without workers doing anything, your money is worthless.

So if you are going to pitch your services to Shell would you pitch them at one of their tanker drivers or one of their bosses?

[DodgyAgent]

Who does the work? Why do agents only see it in terms of money, they don't seem to value the work done. You appear to be arguing that since they are paying us (and you) then they are entitled to more rights?

I have two rules in my business

Rule 1. The customer is always right
Rule 2. If the customer is wrong look at rule 1.

The great thing about markets is that they decide the value of goods and services and you do not.