Reply to: Elan want Bank Statements?

[Badger]

Interesting Non-Job:

Industry: IT
Type: Contract
Position: Data Warehouse Business Intelligence Contracting
Skills: I am a Consultant at Elan Computing - the largest IT
Recruitment Company in Europe. My market expertise lies in the
specialist market of ETL/Data Warehouse and Business Intelligence. I
source candidates for projects through out a whole projects life cycle
from Architects to Developers to Project Managers with Business
Intelligence and/or Data Warehousing experience. I am looking to expand
my network of contractors as quickly as possible. This advert is not
for a vacancy but for you to send me...
Location: London
Start Date: ASAP
Duration: 6 months
Rate: £300 - £800 per day
Advertiser: Elan Computing - Permanent
Business Type: Employment Business
Contact: Richard Twumasi
Phone: 020 7839 1529
Email: mailto:[email protected] om
Ref: JSJ24228A00025759

[expat]

...And very disapointed at jobserve over this, sure they put the warning about providing these details up but they continue to accept Elan posting jobs knowing that they are demanding this kind of information. If they banned them Elan would very rapidly do a U-turn because without jobserve they would rapidly go out of business

Without Elan and their like, jobserve would rapidly go out of business. Any time you're tempted by a warm fuzzy feeling about jobserve, just remember that they are bought and sold.

[Not So Wise]

You are not understanding some things malvolio,

Elan is asking for a copy of a bank statement, which one should never provide to anyone but another financial institution (aka looking for loan or opening another account) not just your paying in details,this combined with the other information they are asking for is more than enough to perform identity theft

And to make things worse they are asking for it before a contract is offered

Elan have been on my "crap" list for a long time, this latest development moves them to my "do not touch with a barge pole" list

if you start getting all secretive your clients are going to start getting suspicious that all is not above board.

And the reverse is also true, if the client or in this case the agency (which is worse as if anything goes wrong we all know the agency will just fold with no chance for us to get recompense) starts demanding information they have no reason to need the contractor should get very suspicious.

And could you imagine what identity thieves would pay after a while for Elans files? hundreds, even thousands files, all containing enough information to easily perform identity theft, all most likely being medium to high net worth individuals. Would you trust any agency to have the policys and security to make sure that would not happen? I most certainly would not

And very disapointed at jobserve over this, sure they put the warning about providing these details up but they continue to accept Elan posting jobs knowing that they are demanding this kind of information. If they banned them Elan would very rapidly do a U-turn because without jobserve they would rapidly go out of business

[malvolio]

But, in my opinion asking for your bank details is way out of order. They should only ask for your certificate of incorporation, your VAT cert if you have one and they should do a Companies House check to see if you are a director of the company and if they want to make super sure, a reference.

Anything else, tell them to do a running jump.

Ermm...

So if you don't give your agency your bank account details, how do you intend getting paid? Phlogiston, perhaps? The account name and number are hardly state secrets, are they?

This thread is getting totally unreal. Jeez, we're supposed to be businesses, not schoolkids, so FFS start thinking like one. Your company accounts are public knowledge anyway, if you start getting all secretive your clients are going to start getting suspicious that all is not above board.

[Sysman]

If I'm VAT registered, why should I listen to an agent who tells me not to charge them VAT? Am I not obligated to charge it?

Yes you are obligated to charge it, unless supplying zero rated or exempt goods. HMRC link.

[NotAllThere]

If you are VAT registered, you are obliged to pay VAT on your earnings, so HMRC will expect to receive it. I guess you're obliged to charge it on your invoices, or else pay it out of your profits.

You do not pay VAT on your (company's) earnings. That is entirely the wrong way to look at it. Do you pay VAT on bank interest retrieved?

[threaded]

If I'm VAT registered, why should I listen to an agent who tells me not to charge them VAT? Am I not obligated to charge it?

In some circumstances you are not obligated to charge it, and in those circumstances you best be getting onto local VAT office for the full SP on what documentation you need and what hoops you need to jump through.

Generally it is when the companies involved are incorporated in different EU countries.

But yes, don't ever take an agents word for anything without properly checking.

[Cheshire Cat]

If I'm VAT registered, why should I listen to an agent who tells me not to charge them VAT? Am I not obligated to charge it?

If you are VAT registered, you are obliged to pay VAT on your earnings, so HMRC will expect to receive it. I guess you're obliged to charge it on your invoices, or else pay it out of your profits.

[ratewhore]

From your side another example of this is where an agency say you shouldn't charge them VAT. You have to ensure that the name of the agency ltd. co., the address and the VAT number are correct, and are all there on the invoice, also you have to keep a note on your files of how you diligently checked the details were correct, and the reasons why you didn't need to charge VAT.

If I'm VAT registered, why should I listen to an agent who tells me not to charge them VAT? Am I not obligated to charge it?

[threaded]

Sorry, I fail to see how this is anyones responsibility beyond the invoicing party. The agency can prove they have paid the invoice using the account details they were given, so they haven't been screwed over. If there is any VAT fraud, then it is nothing to do with the agency anyway as they have merely paid an invoice with VAT applied (using a valid VAT number, if they bother to check).

So, again, there is no requirement for the agency to have this information...

No, doesn't quite work like that. The VAT will say that the agency should check, and if they haven't then the VAT will say they can recover their money from them. The money they recover is the money the agency claimed on their VAT receipts as being paid to you.

From your side another example of this is where an agency say you shouldn't charge them VAT. You have to ensure that the name of the agency ltd. co., the address and the VAT number are correct, and are all there on the invoice, also you have to keep a note on your files of how you diligently checked the details were correct, and the reasons why you didn't need to charge VAT.

[SueEllen]

Actually in theory there is a requirement. So heres the deal.

The BACS system works off numbers, not accounts. Do any bank transfer from your online account and you'll see that. So the name is irrelevant.

While I know BACS works of numbers the bank if they choose to do so could query the payment.

One of the many banks I have a personal account with telephones me up everytime I set up a payment to a new person or company they have never heard off. Yeah it's damn annoying and does delay payments. (So far everything has matched so nothing has been declined.)

Also I've worked in a large UK bank doing basic admin involving moving money between business accounts. One of the jobs someone had to do was check that the company and the account we were paying money into matched. The bank looked for businesses who did a lot of these transactions to sell them "enhanced" services or some business asked for them.

[MarillionFan]

Sorry, I fail to see how this is anyones responsibility beyond the invoicing party. The agency can prove they have paid the invoice using the account details they were given, so they haven't been screwed over. If there is any VAT fraud, then it is nothing to do with the agency anyway as they have merely paid an invoice with VAT applied (using a valid VAT number, if they bother to check).

So, again, there is no requirement for the agency to have this information...

Actually in theory there is a requirement. So heres the deal.

The BACS system works off numbers, not accounts. Do any bank transfer from your online account and you'll see that. So the name is irrelevant.

Ignoring the VAT part of my reply as I was only showing an example of how to defraud it. It is up to an Employer(in this case the agency) to ensure that they tax/NI is paid by it's employees. So in the case of contracting it is assumed that you the contractor will pay. Now the agency has to ensure that a) You are a legit company, b) Whether you are VAT registered or not and c) Whether the account you ask to be paid to is legit.

So if you're not a legit company then it is the agency who is liable. Thats why they are asking and thats why they are doing due deligency.

But, in my opinion asking for your bank details is way out of order. They should only ask for your certificate of incorporation, your VAT cert if you have one and they should do a Companies House check to see if you are a director of the company and if they want to make super sure, a reference.

Anything else, tell them to do a running jump.

[ratewhore]

You can then screw the agency and the VATMAN if you require over.

Sorry, I fail to see how this is anyones responsibility beyond the invoicing party. The agency can prove they have paid the invoice using the account details they were given, so they haven't been screwed over. If there is any VAT fraud, then it is nothing to do with the agency anyway as they have merely paid an invoice with VAT applied (using a valid VAT number, if they bother to check).

So, again, there is no requirement for the agency to have this information...

[configman]

Actually you are very wrong here and thats why they're asking

When you pay my BACS the name of the account is not checked, only the sortcode and account number.

So you give your personal account, but the name of your LTD name, so therefore it looks like you have a legit account. You can then screw the agency and the VATMAN if you require over.

Definitely works 100%(not telling you why I know it works though) but thats the scam and thats why they're asking!!!!

I would not say I am very wrong but if what you are saying is true then it is the banks or BACS system that is incompetent if it cannot perform basic validation. I have done everything to give them the info they need but if they cannot use it then they should be brought to justice for promoting activities that can lead to money laundering activity - if they do not check the account name then they are guilty of any criminal activity.

It is against all government, banking, job-board advice to give the information that Elan are asking for. Why is no one else asking for the information that Elan are asking for?

[MarillionFan]

Every account has a name either personal or a business name, banks do not put Ltd Co on an account name until they have done their checks that the company is real. When they pay by BACS they will have the account name and if the account name does not correspond with account number and sort code then I will not get paid. The account name will show it is not a personal account.

Actually you are very wrong here and thats why they're asking

When you pay my BACS the name of the account is not checked, only the sortcode and account number.

So you give your personal account, but the name of your LTD name, so therefore it looks like you have a legit account. You can then screw the agency and the VATMAN if you require over.

Definitely works 100%(not telling you why I know it works though) but thats the scam and thats why they're asking!!!!