Reply to: fixed term contract help

[Denny]

Denny I think you're being a little black and white here. If tim123 is in a market sector where the supply of contractors exceeds the demand (quite common in the lower rate work), the clients can demand a significant amount of flexibility from the contractors in terms of working practices - because as he states, the clients can simply go and find somebody else who will be more flexible.

In my opinion, at least, it has very little to do with being "cut out for freelancing" and much more to do with market forces.

That still wouldn't make any difference to his ir35 situation though. The market doesn't come into the equation when ascertaining ir35 compliance. You either have a compliant contract and working practices or you don't.

It seems that Tim isn't prepared to risk asking for compliant terms and practices if it means he won't get the gig or risk being kicked out earlier and would rather comply with what the client wants and adapt accordingly. That degree of flexibility would only ensure he is gainfully employed as a temp and he'd be better off using a brolly, if that is the case.

There's nothing at all black and white about it.

[chicane]

I hope you work through a brollie then, to be on the safe side. Seems to me that you aren't really cut out for freelancing only temping.

Denny I think you're being a little black and white here. If tim123 is in a market sector where the supply of contractors exceeds the demand (quite common in the lower rate work), the clients can demand a significant amount of flexibility from the contractors in terms of working practices - because as he states, the clients can simply go and find somebody else who will be more flexible.

In my opinion, at least, it has very little to do with being "cut out for freelancing" and much more to do with market forces.

[Denny]

I am well aware of that, thank you very much.

But if I insisted on that sort of relationship with my clients I would have none.

They ALL want me, only on the basis of, "sit at this desk and do whatever you are given to do that day/week/month", and if you aren't prepared to work that way, we'll give the job to someone else.

tim

I hope you work through a brollie then, to be on the safe side. Seems to me that you aren't really cut out for freelancing only temping.

[tim123]

To be ir35 compliant you should be fulfilling a stream of deliverables to fit your expertise, not just filling in time being given any work to do to fill the time.
.

I am well aware of that, thank you very much.

But if I insisted on that sort of relationship with my clients I would have none.

They ALL want me, only on the basis of, "sit at this desk and do whatever you are given to do that day/week/month", and if you aren't prepared to work that way, we'll give the job to someone else.

tim

[tim123]

It's 'bollocks' not 'bollucks' so please learn to spell.
.

I deliberately spell it wrong so that nanny doesn't delete it.

I wasn't aware that it wasn't on nanny's list

tim

[NotAllThere]

I think you're missing the mutuality part, or at least not making it clear. It is important to know that MOO only exists if there is obligation on both sides.

[Denny]

[QUOTE=Denny;342174][QUOTE=tim123;342079]

As far as ir35 is concerned, anything with 'fixed' in it is is a no-goer for ir35 compliance, as the term 'fixed term' implies that MOO is definitely in place which should never the the case for an ir35 compliant role because no MOO should be in place either during the contract duration through your limited, or on completion of the contract term.


It's 'bollocks' not 'bollucks' so please learn to spell.

You have missed my point entirely. No MOO is about not having to devote time to the client on a time and materials basis and being given any old job to do to make up the hours, rather than the deliverable that takes up the time you will bill for. Your plumber example is rubbish as this is the deliverable and the reason for the job in the first place.

If you look at B&C contracts, they normally have a clause in them that makes clear that no MOO is about the time spent with the client as only determined by deliverables, not just about the obligation to commit after the role has finished.

Otherwise, we'd all be on fixed term contracts guaranteeing work for the entire duration of the 6 months or whatever length it is. That is far from the case, if the client decides to pull a deliverable and give it to someone else, and tells you to find something else to occupy your time until it's time to come back and finish the work, there's nothing you can do except find your own work or do something else for another client. Usually, this isn't an issue as work is normally available to fit the entire time you are on site or wherever for the duration of the contract. To be ir35 compliant you should be fulfilling a stream of deliverables to fit your expertise, not just filling in time being given any work to do to fill the time.

Reciprocally, No MOO is about being able the contractor being able to turn down work DURING the contract, if it is unsuitable and not fitting to their expertise they agreed to do, not just after the contact has ended.

------

The Company or the Client is under no obligation to offer work to the Supplier and the Supplier is under no obligation to accept any work that may be offered. Neither party wishes to create or imply any mutuality of obligation between themselves either in the course of or between any performance of the Services or during any notice period. The Company is not obliged to pay the Supplier at any time when no work is available during this Agreement

[Denny]

[QUOTE=tim123;342079][QUOTE=Denny;342031]
As far as ir35 is concerned, anything with 'fixed' in it is is a no-goer for ir35 compliance, as the term 'fixed term' implies that MOO is definitely in place which should never the the case for an ir35 compliant role because no MOO should be in place either during the contract duration through your limited, or on completion of the contract term.

This is bollucks

You are correct that No MOO means that the contract cannot be a contract of service (which is what you are trying to achieve). But achieving No MOO is a whole lot more than being able to give a month's or even a day's notice.

But having MOO in a contract is completely neutral as to whether it is one of, or for, service. Most contracts for services have MOO (E.g. Contracting a Plumber to fit a bathroom - This is a contract for services because he can sub the job, but it definately has MOO, as (usually) he is contracted to see that the task is completed).

tim

It's 'bollocks' not 'bollucks' so please learn to spell.

You have missed my point entirely. No MOO is about not having to devote time to the client on a time and materials basis and being given any old job to do to make up the hours, rather than the deliverable that takes up the time you will bill for. Your plumber example is rubbish as this is the deliverable and the reason for the job in the first place.

If you look at B&C contracts, they normally have a clause in them that makes clear that no MOO is about the time spent with the client as only determined by deliverables, not just about the obligation to commit after the role has finished.

Otherwise, we'd all be on fixed term contracts guaranteeing work for the entire duration of the 6 months or whatever length it is. That is far from the case, if the client decides to pull a deliverable and give it to someone else, and tells you to find something else to occupy your time until it's time to come back and finish the work, there's nothing you can do except find your own work or do something else for another client. Usually, this isn't an issue as work is normally available to fit the entire time you are on site or wherever for the duration of the contract. To be ir35 compliant you should be fulfilling a stream of deliverables to fit your expertise, not just filling in time being given any work to do to fill the time.

Reciprocally, No MOO is about being able the contractor being able to turn down work DURING the contract, if it is unsuitable and not fitting to their expertise they agreed to do, not just after the contact has ended.

[DaveB]

Hum, why don't I get a little box around my qoute?

tim

You missed the / off of the last [quote]

[tim123]

Hum, why don't I get a little box around my qoute?

tim

[tim123]

[QUOTE=Denny;342031]
As far as ir35 is concerned, anything with 'fixed' in it is is a no-goer for ir35 compliance, as the term 'fixed term' implies that MOO is definitely in place which should never the the case for an ir35 compliant role because no MOO should be in place either during the contract duration through your limited, or on completion of the contract term.
[QUOTE]

This is bollucks

You are correct that No MOO means that the contract cannot be a contract of service (which is what you are trying to achieve). But achieving No MOO is a whole lot more than being able to give a month's or even a day's notice.

But having MOO in a contract is completely neutral as to whether it is one of, or for, service. Most contracts for services have MOO (E.g. Contracting a Plumber to fit a bathroom - This is a contract for services because he can sub the job, but it definately has MOO, as (usually) he is contracted to see that the task is completed).

tim

[Denny]

By definition a 'fixed term contract' it is to be described like that in the contract means that the ToR as a contractor through own limited or brolly or employment as a temporary employee directly employed by the client is 'fixed.'

As far as ir35 is concerned, anything with 'fixed' in it is is a no-goer for ir35 compliance, as the term 'fixed term' implies that MOO is definitely in place which should never the the case for an ir35 compliant role because no MOO should be in place either during the contract duration through your limited, or on completion of the contract term.

There is a strong liklihood you will be on payroll, so make sure you get your benefits paid and your rights fully understood.

[Mr Maginka]

I suppose it's what suits best. Personally I was offered one in negotiating but I viewed it as a poor relation to contracting based purely on what you can earn. So told them where to get off and give me a contract with a good daily rate.

[chicane]

If going to them for 12 months as an employee (with additional benefits that brings) means that you are increasing your future opportunities as a contractor then why avoid it?

I'd sooner negotiate to try ditching the holidays and other employment pointers with a view to turning it into a "normal" 12 month contract on a specified day rate.

[WindyAnna]

As others have suggested, find out how you'll be paid. Also find out whether sick pay, holidays and other benefits (eg pension) are on the table - these are definite pointers towards employment and something you need to avoid.

Ah but if teh rate seems lower BUT holidays are included, although it points to employment it could actually mean he would be better off. Need to get this checked out and then do the sums. If going to them for 12 months as an employee (with additional benefits that brings) means that you are increasing your future opportunities as a contractor then why avoid it?