Reply to: Are MS Certs worth anything?

[r0bly0ns]

What like getting pissed and running up huge debts??? Hardly life skills IMHO!

[dr_beat]

That's one thing that a cert absolutely DOESN'T prove. Knowing a product (any product) only comes with experience and cannot be tought - unless we're talking Word/Excel level. There are always too many idiosynchrosies, tricks of the trade, things that those in the know know, etc etc

When I did my W2K MCSE track I was shocked at just how little the experienced I have met knew about the product: Windows 2000 Server! To prove a point, the amount of uncertified people that I know who I have worked and am working with at the moment only one of them has ever heard of Sysprep for XP cloning. Company I currently work at has been dishing out cloned images all over the shop onto new laptops etc and when I asked the "experienced" how they get round the issue of duplicate SIDs the "experienced" look at me as if to say "what the **** are you on?"...

Your study method teaches you many tricks of the trade - the best people to go to for the tricks of the trade are the product manufacturers! When I did my W2K MCSE track I used all sorts of sources that included M$ webcasts, M$ white papers, Learnkey and CBT Nuggets CBTs, M$ Training books and finally the W2K, XP Pro and Exchange 2000 resource kits! Now all those materials teach you alot about the product!

However, after saying all that you can't beat a combination of certified and a lot of experience with a product!

[Cowboy Bob]

be able to provide proof that you know the product!

That's one thing that a cert absolutely DOESN'T prove. Knowing a product (any product) only comes with experience and cannot be tought - unless we're talking Word/Excel level. There are always too many idiosynchrosies, tricks of the trade, things that those in the know know, etc etc

[NotAllThere]

SAP = Suffer After Purchase ??

Substantial Additional Profit.

[vhadiant]

When I was a permie, my company paid $2000 for each of the exam that I pass toward my MCSD.NET certification. You would be a brain dead if you didn't do it.

Took me a full year to do all 5 exams! So don't scoff people who had the cert, I learnt a lot more than I thought I knew from studying for the exams. I really recommend people actually studying for the exams, Amit Kalani's books are one of the best .NET books out there. Once you've done the book, might as well take the exam.

[vetran]

Aug 2007
2 million MCPs worldwide
1 Million MCSEs
68,000 2003 MCSEs

2004 - 15 million IT professionals worldwide

so MCP makes you 1 in 7.
MCSE makes you 1 in 15
2003 MCSE makes you one in 221 of IT people.



Note most MCP's are in the US so ratios are higher in UK.

[fridge]

I guess it is sorth having the certs but if you can get off with braindrump then it is an easy option. So in the end get the certs or you may not get the gig.

[dr_beat]

I think the main difference between IT certs and GCSE's / Degrees is that you can get the certification by just turning up on the day and cheating at an exam.

Sure you can cheat at an exam on a degree or GCSE, but in order to get to the exam you have to have spent at least a year turning up to classes and actually doing some sort of work or training.
If what I have heard from old bosses is true, a degree is less about the actualy qualification and more about the life skills you learn by attending Uni for a few years.

What like getting pissed and running up huge debts??? Hardly life skills IMHO!

You can book yourself into a GCSE exam at a local college providing you give enough notice and pay them the 40 quid! You can also pay some chump on Yahoo Answers to do the coursework for you. You don't have to attend a course...unless you're at school of course!

[Jog On]

I think certs are good for getting your CV noticed and getting call backs/interviews.

It's a real shame that braindumping has done what it has to the certification world. Add that to all the training companies selling "get your [fill in the blanks] in 2 weeks then we'll put you into a £30k job!" rubbish and you've got certified people all over the place devalueing (sp?) the qualifications.

Now agents/clients 'expect' certain certs as a minimum.

Of course interview stage filters out the clueless from the real deal but it's a bit annoying that agents might be searching on keywords like MCSE and discounting applications that don't have it.

I can't be bothered with MS certs, I got a few NT4s and when they 'discontinued' the certification because it was out of date (even though at the time plent of people were still (and some still are) using it and had no intention of upgrading to W2k just because MS said it was time to).

I still use my NT4 cert - even though it's out of date - not that it makes any difference to how much I know or what I can do. I do think I get more call back because of it (and the CCNA) though.

[r0bly0ns]

It's the way of the world but for some reason cheating only seems to devalue IT certs - all the rest - other qualifications and professions - are unaffected i.e. GCSEs, Degrees, plumbers, electricians blah blah.

I think the main difference between IT certs and GCSE's / Degrees is that you can get the certification by just turning up on the day and cheating at an exam.

Sure you can cheat at an exam on a degree or GCSE, but in order to get to the exam you have to have spent at least a year turning up to classes and actually doing some sort of work or training.
If what I have heard from old bosses is true, a degree is less about the actualy qualification and more about the life skills you learn by attending Uni for a few years.

[DBA_bloke]

SAP = Suffer After Purchase ??

Typical Oracle SAP-phobic, rabid, baying-at-the-moon whinging. I am in full agreement!

[oracleslave]

Perhaps it's just in M$. The SAP world doesn't seem to care once a certain level of experience is reached.

SAP = Suffer After Purchase ??

[NotAllThere]

Perhaps it's just in M$. The SAP world doesn't seem to care once a certain level of experience is reached.

[ruth11]

My CV gets past the filters because I am MCSE qualified. It might only be in NT 4.0 but it still gets me past the filters and it's still a valid qualification!


It also proves that I've been doing the job for a long time and that I have the ability to pass the exams if I took them. Maybe that's why people don't particularly seem bothered that I haven't taken the new ones.

[dr_beat]

Often had people tell me that they are worth diddly squat! This is usually down to the braindumping syndrome! But what people seem to forget is that exactly the same issues affect Degrees, HNDs, GCSEs etc...People can cheat on all sorts of exams/assesments. I note that the ITIL exam is suffering from braindumps too! They are also plumbers and electricians out there who fake their qualifications and even school teachers that fake QTS status etc. It's the way of the world but for some reason cheating only seems to devalue IT certs - all the rest - other qualifications and professions - are unaffected i.e. GCSEs, Degrees, plumbers, electricians blah blah.

For me Certs are an excellent way to a) get to know a product and b) be able to provide proof that you know the product! I agree that it can't give you real world experience but it's better then nothing!

9 times out of 10 it is usually the uncertified that regard certs as being worthless. I know a few certified people who are doing rather well - one thing they all say is that their MCSE/CCNA or CNE gets them the interview.