Death March projects

[willendure]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN12-hJI7ws

[willendure]

I would suggest you offer Winston Wolf services to them.

Had to google that, is it a reference to Pulp Fiction? Somehow I never saw that movie, and I should. Also watched Fight Club for the first time recently - there are some classics I missed!

[willendure]

Yeah I was more meaning where there is intense time pressure - which there nearly always is in a Death March. Project i jumped from they had committed to building a full decision in principal process in sprint 1, a full mortgage application process in sprint 2, an agent portal in sprint 3. No process or requirements agreed for any of it, or agreement on the integrations to be used. You can probably guess how well it went.

Didn't anyone tell them, you plan each sprint as you go?

[Ketto]

I think that depends on the project. An agile project may not need much up-front analysis because on of the central ideas is that coding and design are the same thing. But it needs a commitment to that way of doing things, developers that don't just sit and wait to be spoon-fed requirements but are actively involved, available end users or ux experts or BAs to directly engage with the design process with developers, a well liked and effective product owner, and a high functioning team that easily communicate with each other and take a pride in their work and do things to a high standard. Of course even the most agile of projects may be technically complex and there does likely need to be some up-front architecture work to ensure things go smoothly.

But I have worked on very successful agile projects where the sprint 1 ticket was "get the login page working" or something like that, and all the remaining requirements were gathered as the project progressed. Also worth mentioning the particular project where this worked best was public sector so there was not the same commercial pressure to deliver fast - it took a long time but the end result was of a very high standard.

Yeah I was more meaning where there is intense time pressure - which there nearly always is in a Death March. Project i jumped from they had committed to building a full decision in principal process in sprint 1, a full mortgage application process in sprint 2, an agent portal in sprint 3. No process or requirements agreed for any of it, or agreement on the integrations to be used. You can probably guess how well it went.

[uk contractor]

Now I am wondering if half the useless twats I work with are doing exactly that... 80% of the people I have encountered at this client, a decent sized company, are just coasting. Maybe there is a hidden 10% or 20% that are actively sabotaging things.

I was trying very hard to get things to work, but with contract winding down in the next couple of months I am mostly now operating in arse covering mode - its going to fail, just don't let it be possible for anyone to pin the blame on me!

I would sooner just quit than actively sabotage things when working as a contractor - that would be deeply unprofessional.

Yep it not you or me or most people on here way of doing things as we are highly professional but I have learnt so many deadwood resource in IT projects just existing doing barely enough to survive & not willing to say when things are going wrong...last IB I worked at was full of twats like that...they retained their perm jobs while people like me who were willing to advise management & were highly regarded by the business were put on redundancy notice LOL

Go figure why that was! They will go bust at sometime anyway as the mistakes they have made are so basic & fundamental they will sink the bank when the IT errors cause massive revenue loss in Q3-Q4 !

[TheDude]

So we have a great combination of no requierments an Indian outsourcer doing the technical delivery andthe smelly stuff is now hitting the fan.

Other than brushing off the of the CV any suggestions for dealing with it?

Senior stakeholders are in full denial mode, we are months away from having processes signed off and the outsources are ready to go. We've done all the sprint zero stuff set up the environments, onboarded etc.

Senior stakeholders will be more interested in covering their own asses than delivering the project.

I would suggest you offer Winston Wolf services to them.

[willendure]

If possible torpedo the project as in let it fail but ensure your not sitting in the line of fire for the blowback!

It will probably not change much as cost seems to be everything right now but fun to watch it implode!

Now I am wondering if half the useless twats I work with are doing exactly that... 80% of the people I have encountered at this client, a decent sized company, are just coasting. Maybe there is a hidden 10% or 20% that are actively sabotaging things.

I was trying very hard to get things to work, but with contract winding down in the next couple of months I am mostly now operating in arse covering mode - its going to fail, just don't let it be possible for anyone to pin the blame on me!

I would sooner just quit than actively sabotage things when working as a contractor - that would be deeply unprofessional.

[willendure]

If an agile project kicks off before people are ready it is very hard to recover from in my experience. Like being hit by a tsunami every two weeks…. You work like the absolute clappers getting everything done, collapse in a heap at the end - then have to do it all again. Over and over. Then the defects, rows and blame starts.

I think that depends on the project. An agile project may not need much up-front analysis because on of the central ideas is that coding and design are the same thing. But it needs a commitment to that way of doing things, developers that don't just sit and wait to be spoon-fed requirements but are actively involved, available end users or ux experts or BAs to directly engage with the design process with developers, a well liked and effective product owner, and a high functioning team that easily communicate with each other and take a pride in their work and do things to a high standard. Of course even the most agile of projects may be technically complex and there does likely need to be some up-front architecture work to ensure things go smoothly.

But I have worked on very succesful agile projects where the sprint 1 ticket was "get the login page working" or something like that, and all the remaining requirements were gathered as the project progressed. Also worth mentioning the particular project where this worked best was public sector so there was not the same commercial pressure to deliver fast - it took a long time but the end result was of a very high standard.

The problem where I work at the moment is that they do fake agile. The way they work is completely waterfall, but they do 2 week sprints so think they are "being agile". Unfortunately the PM has failed to step up and ensure that each of the stages of the waterfall fell into place in a timely way, and is even now suggesting that we just do things in an "agile way", which basically means zero work or organisation on his part.

Its very hard to understand the offshore Indian developers and anything I ask them to do they always run away and ask their dev manager "it is ok?". They can't do agile because they are completely incapable of using any initiative at all. As soon as they run out of spoon fed requirements, they just stop and do nothing until someone asks them why they are doing nothing.

Previous gig I was exposed to a more continental style of management - not that PMs in Europe never screw up - but there was quite a different mentality on the whole to the UK. I found that PMs didn't just sit back and tell other people what to do, but recognized that being a manager is hard work and more often than not were putting the work in to ensure things were organized and smooth running.

I think this is also a bigger problem in the UK ever since Covid - our managers are lazy, clueless, and play the "i'm not technical card". They don't know the difference between a talented UK contractor and an Indian bum-on-seat, its all the same to them. Being a PM just means you hassle some BAs for a bit and tell them to tell the devs to get on with it. When it goes wrong throw toys out the pram and make some ridiculous threats just to make sure everyone is extra stressed in addition to trying to do their job with no support and uncertain requirements.

[uk contractor]

If possible torpedo the project as in let it fail but ensure your not sitting in the line of fire for the blowback!

It will probably not change much as cost seems to be everything right now but fun to watch it implode!

[Ketto]

If an agile project kicks off before people are ready it is very hard to recover from in my experience. Like being hit by a tsunami every two weeks…. You work like the absolute clappers getting everything done, collapse in a heap at the end - then have to do it all again. Over and over. Then the defects, rows and blame starts.

I’d decide based on how long the project is and whether there is any real prospect of success at the end. My previous project was shaping up be like that for 12-18 months and was a complete bugfest car crash, so jacked it in and have been working with a previous client very happily for previous 18 months. I’d have jacked it in even without another offer soon enough, my other half kept saying i was as grey as the John Major spitting image puppet i was that stressed.

Interestingly, my first engagement a few years ago with the client i jumped to was also a death march, but we had a brilliant team, it was only for three months and we delivered something good at the end which they were happy with. Which led to multiple extensions and the offer to work with them again a few years later. So i’d assess how long you think the death march will take and the likelihood of success as sticking with it can benefit in the long run.

But if the project is doomed, the (real) timeline is long and the team are crap. I’d be looking to jump ship.

[willendure]

So we have a great combination of no requierments an Indian outsourcer doing the technical delivery andthe smelly stuff is now hitting the fan.

Other than brushing off the of the CV any suggestions for dealing with it?

Senior stakeholders are in full denial mode, we are months away from having processes signed off and the outsources are ready to go. We've done all the sprint zero stuff set up the environments, onboarded etc.

I am in exactly the same position as you! Indian devs all ready to go, they have started in fact, and the spec isn't even half way ready! I've been chasing the a-hole who is writing the spec for months and he kept promising I would have it next monday morning, next monday morning. I think he has actually made a start on it now. Project MUST be delivered end of Sept. Senior stakeholders making a BIG FUSS. Funny thing is, we needed the senior stakehodlers to do some actual work the other day, to get us some info on the clients to set them up with accounts, and they could not be arsed and tried to fob it off on me! Well, it is sunny at the moment, the poor buggers need to WFH and sit in the garden enjoying a lemonade most likely.

Just heard they want to extend my contract as it runs out in about 8 weeks. I switched my mic off I was laughing so hard. Haven't told them where to stick it yet! What a farce.

[Protagoras]

Option 1 - Spend the time enhancing skills, brushing up CV and prospecting, ready to jump ship.

Option2 - If you want to stay there, then perhaps it's time to get together with others to 'engineer a crisis'. One that's sufficiently significant that the senior stakeholders can't ignore it, or even one that gets the attention of their bosses. I've done this several times as a staffer, but not as a contractor ... that requires more careful play.

[BlueSharp]

So we have a great combination of no requierments an Indian outsourcer doing the technical delivery andthe smelly stuff is now hitting the fan.

Other than brushing off the of the CV any suggestions for dealing with it?

Senior stakeholders are in full denial mode, we are months away from having processes signed off and the outsources are ready to go. We've done all the sprint zero stuff set up the environments, onboarded etc.