Reply to: Warning / Advice on Potentially Fake 'Outside IR35' Contracts

[ladymuck]

Or just share the link to the job. Then we can all apply for it and get a gig you don't want

[northernladuk]

No

Mods policy depends on what time of what day so the question is.. Do you feel lucky punk?

[ElDuderino]

I think it's now time to name the agency...

Maybe. What's the mods' policy on that?

Anyone successfully sued an agency for loss of earnings or such?

[eek]

Role is back on Jobserve being advertised as outside IR35...

I think it's now time to name the agency...

[ElDuderino]

Update
Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.

Role is back on Jobserve being advertised as outside IR35...

[ladymuck]

Funny you mention them. I rang and applied to them when I was on the bench for the long time and they didn't respond. I got dumped by Office Angels..... that didn't help my mood any.

You're no angel...

[northernladuk]

Or go to Office Angels and hire a temp, the good old fashioned way

Funny you mention them. I rang and applied to them when I was on the bench for the long time and they didn't respond. I got dumped by Office Angels..... that didn't help my mood any.

[ladymuck]

Sounds like they don't need to understand IR35. The want a temp permie. All they need to understand is how to issue an inside SDS and get on.

Or go to Office Angels and hire a temp, the good old fashioned way

[ElDuderino]

I'm just left annoyed at myself for dealing with agencies after 5 years not doing contracting and 10 not doing permie employment, and left out-of-pocket whilst I've been battling with an agent over correct determination, only for it to have been an inside IR35 role all along.

My view was that contracting should be up my street again now and could be a welcome source of projects and regular income.


I suspect though that we're going to need to see a die-off of traditional recruitment agencies and a birth of service-focused, highly-knowledgeable networkers who understand particular tech domains and what outside IR35 is really about, and can correctly sell to & advise clients.


As it is, I'm suspecting a lot of traditional agencies might try this fudging, wool-pulling approach on as a way to win business from clients who are still traditionally-minded, but don't want to pay the extra 1.5x rate for an inside IR35 contractor.

And so I think proper consulting-minded contractors do need to be pretty eagle-eyed about this.

[northernladuk]

Update
Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.

Client hasn't understood IR35 (or they have, and this was their final stab at getting me in on inside IR35 terms).

Sounds like they don't need to understand IR35. The want a temp permie. All they need to understand is how to issue an inside SDS and get on.

[ElDuderino]

Update
Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.

Client hasn't understood IR35 (or they have, and this was their final stab at getting me in on inside IR35 terms).


Summary

The agency knew all along that this was an inside IR35 requirement, and tried to fudge it into an 'outside IR35' role in order to provide the client with what they wanted in terms of working practices and budget.

So: Beware Fake Outside IR35 roles and the nasty contract clauses + blurry working practices which come with them.

[eek]

If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.

It's probably not an office holder role, as with everything else on CEST the top level description isn't good enough and is biased towards HMRC's "You are using CEST = Inside" mindset.

[fidot]

If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.

[ElDuderino]

E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.

Just noticed agent spells name of agency wrong in this statement.

[ElDuderino]

E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.

SDS is attached.

SDS says:

'Off-Payroll working rules (IR35) apply'.

"In the Worker's Duties section, you answered that the worker will perform office holder duties. This means they are classed as employed for tax purposes for this work."


Going back to my original thread title...

Be careful out there and ask the right questions, insist on your right to be asking the right questions, don't allow yourself to be bullied, have your arm twisted to sign a contract, don't be made to feel that you are being unprofessional or unreasonable, and don't sign anything until you have asked all the right questions and demanded proof as to the status of the role.

I realise that's the usual sort of advice people will get on here but I can't re-iterate it enough. This has been some pretty shocking practice from this agent. I suspect the client was going along with it all the way through. That's my next bit of probing to do.

I'd like to thank Eek once more for the clear and sage advice.