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Previously on "Warning / Advice on Potentially Fake 'Outside IR35' Contracts"

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  • ladymuck
    replied
    Or just share the link to the job. Then we can all apply for it and get a gig you don't want

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    No

    Mods policy depends on what time of what day so the question is.. Do you feel lucky punk?

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post
    I think it's now time to name the agency...
    Maybe. What's the mods' policy on that?

    Anyone successfully sued an agency for loss of earnings or such?

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
    Role is back on Jobserve being advertised as outside IR35...
    I think it's now time to name the agency...

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
    Update
    Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

    So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.
    Role is back on Jobserve being advertised as outside IR35...

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Funny you mention them. I rang and applied to them when I was on the bench for the long time and they didn't respond. I got dumped by Office Angels..... that didn't help my mood any.
    You're no angel...

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by ladymuck View Post
    Or go to Office Angels and hire a temp, the good old fashioned way
    Funny you mention them. I rang and applied to them when I was on the bench for the long time and they didn't respond. I got dumped by Office Angels..... that didn't help my mood any.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post
    Sounds like they don't need to understand IR35. The want a temp permie. All they need to understand is how to issue an inside SDS and get on.
    Or go to Office Angels and hire a temp, the good old fashioned way

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    I'm just left annoyed at myself for dealing with agencies after 5 years not doing contracting and 10 not doing permie employment, and left out-of-pocket whilst I've been battling with an agent over correct determination, only for it to have been an inside IR35 role all along.

    My view was that contracting should be up my street again now and could be a welcome source of projects and regular income.


    I suspect though that we're going to need to see a die-off of traditional recruitment agencies and a birth of service-focused, highly-knowledgeable networkers who understand particular tech domains and what outside IR35 is really about, and can correctly sell to & advise clients.


    As it is, I'm suspecting a lot of traditional agencies might try this fudging, wool-pulling approach on as a way to win business from clients who are still traditionally-minded, but don't want to pay the extra 1.5x rate for an inside IR35 contractor.

    And so I think proper consulting-minded contractors do need to be pretty eagle-eyed about this.
    Last edited by ElDuderino; 11 March 2020, 16:10.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
    Update
    Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

    So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.

    Client hasn't understood IR35 (or they have, and this was their final stab at getting me in on inside IR35 terms).
    Sounds like they don't need to understand IR35. The want a temp permie. All they need to understand is how to issue an inside SDS and get on.

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    Update
    Client called me, they offered a finders fee to the agency in order to take me on directly.

    So finally I got to ask about working practices. Client would want me working 37.5 hours every week and to be office based, working as a member of their team. They wouldn't be happy with me servicing other clients during regular working hours, even at a low level.

    Client hasn't understood IR35 (or they have, and this was their final stab at getting me in on inside IR35 terms).


    Summary

    The agency knew all along that this was an inside IR35 requirement, and tried to fudge it into an 'outside IR35' role in order to provide the client with what they wanted in terms of working practices and budget.

    So: Beware Fake Outside IR35 roles and the nasty contract clauses + blurry working practices which come with them.
    Last edited by ElDuderino; 11 March 2020, 15:33.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by fidot View Post
    If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.
    It's probably not an office holder role, as with everything else on CEST the top level description isn't good enough and is biased towards HMRC's "You are using CEST = Inside" mindset.

    Leave a comment:


  • fidot
    replied
    If it is an office holder role, it will always be inside.

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    Originally posted by ElDuderino View Post
    E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.
    Just noticed agent spells name of agency wrong in this statement.

    Leave a comment:


  • ElDuderino
    replied
    E-Mail from agent says 'I (agent name) confirm that the <role> at <client> is outside of IR35'.

    SDS is attached.

    SDS says:

    'Off-Payroll working rules (IR35) apply'.

    "In the Worker's Duties section, you answered that the worker will perform office holder duties. This means they are classed as employed for tax purposes for this work."


    Going back to my original thread title...

    Be careful out there and ask the right questions, insist on your right to be asking the right questions, don't allow yourself to be bullied, have your arm twisted to sign a contract, don't be made to feel that you are being unprofessional or unreasonable, and don't sign anything until you have asked all the right questions and demanded proof as to the status of the role.

    I realise that's the usual sort of advice people will get on here but I can't re-iterate it enough. This has been some pretty shocking practice from this agent. I suspect the client was going along with it all the way through. That's my next bit of probing to do.

    I'd like to thank Eek once more for the clear and sage advice.
    Last edited by ElDuderino; 9 March 2020, 13:26.

    Leave a comment:

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