Reply to: Outside IR35 specific consultancy contracts

[jayn200]

I wonder, there are some contractors that offer consultancy around strategy, agile coaching, training, systems architecture etc that are by nature short lived, say 3-6 months. These are by nature outside IR35, due to the nature of business (can't be any control, substitution, liely not an everyday job 9-5 etc).

Shouldn't these still remain outside IR35?

More than likely they will remain outside, but it's not up to you to determine if they are outside or not anymore. All you can do is try and influence the client as much as you can and refuse to do the work (or ask for a higher rate) if they determine it's inside.

There's probably a good 50% of contractors that really are disguised employees, people who have worked for the same client for multiple years working on multiple projects and BAU work who report to a manager in the traditional business hierarchy and mostly operate under the same rules as other permanent employees but just with a different pay and tax structure. Those are really the ones that IR35 applies to and was meant to apply to. I wouldn't say an independent strategy consultant working on 3 month contract falls into that category but it's up to the client to decide now (come april) and it's up to the consultancy to decide if they want to carry out the work or not.

[genji7]

Some will have to and our engagements could be different in some circumstances which is why you need to understand them.

The engagement method I've just started is completely different to any I've been on in 10 year's. Consultancy based, clear deliverables, milestone and so on. I'm sure many won't but the whole landscape is changing.

Hi
I've been contracting with a typical agency-PSC model for the same clients for the last two years and just got the procurement guy/sponsor agreed to go with direct supplier relationship with the revised financial agreement. i.e get paid based on SoW, milestone based deliverables etc.
I'm also thinking to hire a resource the client has budgeted for upon agreement with client.

The client took a blanket approach and sending the assessment result to everyone as 'inside' but i'm thinking to opt out to get that result since i'm commencing new biz. relationship with the client anyway.

Since you're doing the same thing (not sure whether you're with new or existing client), could I get some advice if this type of shifted relationship with same client would still trigger any potential investigation case?

I don't think it is risky enough for me to abandon the idea and move on with new client but just conscious that the client did a blanket assessment for a record.

[Skag]

And that's the best plan for the short term IMO. Waiting to see what the raft of 'never take an inside gig' people on linkedin are going to do.

Social media eh?

[Skag]

IMO there is going to be a crazy roundabout end march beginning of April where people leave their inside gigs and take up another. Then it will settle down to much the same as before but mainly inside gigs.

That would be my guess too. Clients simply can't afford to halt projects in progress, plus there isn't enough talent out there to cover; even it there was, training, hand overs etc would cost many months to complete.

[perplexed]

Unless you're spending half your post-tax income getting to the gig...

Not an issue, never been an issue - geographically restricted due to family circumstances. Can absorb travel costs without major issue.

[malvolio]

Having had a horrendous last financial year, for reasons external to work ability, I'm taking a pragmatic approach. If an Inside role appears, well, it's money. Get through next six months and see. If the future is "permanent" inside roles via umbrella then so be it - can live off that easily.

Unless you're spending half your post-tax income getting to the gig...

[northernladuk]

Having had a horrendous last financial year, for reasons external to work ability, I'm taking a pragmatic approach. If an Inside role appears, well, it's money. Get through next six months and see. If the future is "permanent" inside roles via umbrella then so be it - can live off that easily.

And that's the best plan for the short term IMO. Waiting to see what the raft of 'never take an inside gig' people on linkedin are going to do.

[perplexed]

IMO there is going to be a crazy roundabout end march beginning of April where people leave their inside gigs and take up another. Then it will settle down to much the same as before but mainly inside gigs.

I don't see anything changing in 3 to 6 months after April. It will take much longer than that for clients to realise it doesn't work etc.

The same gigs will be there, that need hasn't gone. Just a coin flip to how you'll be engaged.

Having had a horrendous last financial year, for reasons external to work ability, I'm taking a pragmatic approach. If an Inside role appears, well, it's money. Get through next six months and see. If the future is "permanent" inside roles via umbrella then so be it - can live off that easily.

[northernladuk]

IMO there is going to be a crazy roundabout end march beginning of April where people leave their inside gigs and take up another. Then it will settle down to much the same as before but mainly inside gigs.

I don't see anything changing in 3 to 6 months after April. It will take much longer than that for clients to realise it doesn't work etc.

The same gigs will be there, that need hasn't gone. Just a coin flip to how you'll be engaged.

[Skag]

The very quick and dirty answer is the work the clients need doing hasn't changed. If they need consultants, bums on seats or whatever will still be there to a greater or lesser extent.

It's how the engage their contractors that is changing.

What's your situation? You in a gig with a client giving you a determination?

Yes, that much I understand.
Not engaged atm, just shopping around and try to ascertain how this will play out in the next 3-6 months.
I read about FTC and SOW and the like, but I still hope!

[northernladuk]

The very quick and dirty answer is the work the clients need doing hasn't changed. If they need consultants, bums on seats or whatever will still be there to a greater or lesser extent.

It's how the engage their contractors that is changing.

What's your situation? You in a gig with a client giving you a determination?

[northernladuk]

So you mean "after the IR35 changes"... I thought agencies/consultancies are changing something in their business model that I'm not aware of.

Some will have to and our engagements could be different in some circumstances which is why you need to understand them.

The engagement method I've just started is completely different to any I've been on in 10 year's. Consultancy based, clear deliverables, milestone and so on. I'm sure many won't but the whole landscape is changing.

[Skag]

If the consultancy is a package i.e. a set of prepared lessons, defined consultancy sessions, then yes it would be outside, but if the client is telling you what they want and you are simply using your expertise in supplying what they want, then no. That would be my interpretation.

i.e. time and materials is generally inside.

In any case it is up to the client to determine whether it is inside or out.

Yeah, this is what I am referring to, usually these type of gigs are something like "to come up with a strategy for X business unit", or to "review the existing architecture and propose changes". Again, grey area in between.

[Skag]

You really need to get your head out of the sand. The new legislation hits in 4 weeks time. To answer your question above would need me to explain the full scope of what's happening on April 2020 and then make some assumptions and give you some opinions.

A better path for you to take is to really pull your finger out and research. You need to understand what is happening and how the landscape is going to change. By doing that you might have a better clue as to whether they will stop or not. After that you need to go read up and see the impact it's had so far which will give you a clue on how the legislation will affect the market.

This is your livelihood. How can you survive if you don't know what is happening? It's going to be very bad for a lot of people.

Do some research and come back with any specific questions that don't cover the entire mess we are in in one question.

So you mean "after the IR35 changes"... I thought agencies/consultancies are changing something in their business model that I'm not aware of.

[northernladuk]

Not as a micro consultancy. I've worked in short-term consultancy contracts via an agency, using my Ltd, in the typical fashion: ClientCo pays agency, agency pays my Ltd. All these outside IR35. Will these stop? They're still valid outside IR35 as far as I am concerned.



What's changing?

You really need to get your head out of the sand. The new legislation hits in 4 weeks time. To answer your question above would need me to explain the full scope of what's happening on April 2020 and then make some assumptions and give you some opinions.

A better path for you to take is to really pull your finger out and research. You need to understand what is happening and how the landscape is going to change. By doing that you might have a better clue as to whether they will stop or not. After that you need to go read up and see the impact it's had so far which will give you a clue on how the legislation will affect the market.

This is your livelihood. How can you survive if you don't know what is happening? It's going to be very bad for a lot of people.

Do some research and come back with any specific questions that don't cover the entire mess we are in in one question.