Reply to: Day Rates Down

[m0n1k3r]

Ive notices a number ob BA roles that have really low rates...300 or below. But also quite a few on the £300 - £375 range (London) So they must be cofident that they will get takers at these low rates. Who's taking them? If you live in London, its a pittance.

There has long been an oversupply of BAs, which is pushing rates down. A year ago I was recruiting for a good BA (direct on Jobserve, not via an agency). Aside from the 20+ calls from agencies wanting to sell me their expertise services (indicating that I don't know anything about hiring), I also received more than 200 applications from BA's, around 25% of whom actually fulfilled the requirements stated in the advert. Still a lot.

For a hirer, it's usually not about finding the absolutely best. It is about finding the one who can provide precisely those skills and experiences required at the lowest possible rate. Asking for more than others just because the applicant's experience goes well beyond the requirements doesn't work.

So yes, there are probably people accepting those rates as it is better to get something than nothing, faced with the stiff competition among BAs.

[m0n1k3r]

Really? How many agencies do you think recruit Tier 2 visa workers?

There are Indian "agencies" that rely on Tier 2 intra-company transfers to recruit them. Their Indian HQ recruits them there and then ships them to their UK-based subsidiary to work in the UK. The baseline rate might seem market-based, but the agency provides them with housing etc and take that off their rates, making it closer to £225 than £500.

[LondonManc]

I'm not convinced any of what you've mentioned are considered niche.

The niche factor in BI comes with the tools. MS BI stack certainly isn't niche, no doubt about it.

[northernladuk]

Hmm, heading into BI is much different to software development, I know some really good BI devs that don't know how to program at all, although their SQL skills are insane.

Not really sure what I'm gonna do tbh. Will investigate these niches but probs only permie work would get me good at them

I'm not convinced any of what you've mentioned are considered niche.

[LondonManc]

Hmm, heading into BI is much different to software development, I know some really good BI devs that don't know how to program at all, although their SQL skills are insane.

Not really sure what I'm gonna do tbh. Will investigate these niches but probs only permie work would get me good at them

For BI up north, you're better off in a perm role based on my experiences. Average £350 at 40 weeks per year and you're looking at £70k. Compared to a, say, £50k per job for an experienced senior developer or £60k for a BI Architect and with the benefits, development and redundancy buffer, it doesn't seem worth it compared to the days of £400 v £40k.

For London, you're looking, as a more senior/experienced contractor, at comparing £550 to £90k based on the adverts that I saw late 17/early 18 - I've not needed to look at the market since Feb. Again, not that favourable unless the tax breaks can kick in properly for you, but there's also the "pound of flesh" factor if you take a VP or more senior role in a bank.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Hmm, heading into BI is much different to software development, I know some really good BI devs that don't know how to program at all, although their SQL skills are insane.

Not really sure what I'm gonna do tbh. Will investigate these niches but probs only permie work would get me good at them

[madame SasGuru]

Yes on point. I am a contractor (365/sharepoint) and can tell you it's not easy to just get into and contract! You not only need to know how to code in multiple languages but also administer, test and architect. I project manage projects and people too. To top it all of SharePoint is constantly changing especially in 365 so you are constantly learning and expected to know your stuff when they have an issue. It's recommended to go perm in a selected field for a few year and then contract. In SharePoint make it at least 5 years as you'll be found out quite fast by the client. Also getting £500+ in SharePoint is mainly around 365 so expect azure, 365 forms, sharepoint, flow, bi, powerapps and onedrive/outlook dev in the mix hence the price.

In the last few years it's been flooded with idiot contractors who mess up projects and people like me have to come in and sort it out. I guess that is what you get for paying cheap! Or Indian firms like wipro who majorly mess up projects and so far stuck up own ass with outdated solutions.

Don't forget to add your typical Microsoft (Gold) partner in the mix. While i'm more an ISV nowadays (applications available on Appsource) I'm still continually shocked at how bad most partners are.

Thankfully the Custom Code Validation tool that arrives in a fortnight will give a lot of end customers a method to validate the quality of the work they have paid for (I suspect a lot of customers will be looking for new partners)...

I also avoid sharepoint as I don't like it. The Power Framework (PowerApps, PowerBI and Flow) is more than enough for me to work with...

[cosmic]

Interesting stuff. Cheers for the info. TBH considering how much of a nightmare sharepoint was when I first tried dev on it I am not sure it's worth the extra cash...

I do the job because I enjoy it. Money wise it's well underpaid and expect you to do everything. You should get into service now which is free for dev environment and they pay good for contractors or bi work like Tableau which don't have many devs so getting a contract should be easy. If you have sql experience you'll be snapped up at a good rate!

Good luck!

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Yes on point. I am a contractor (365/sharepoint) and can tell you it's not easy to just get into and contract! You not only need to know how to code in multiple languages but also administer, test and architect. I project manage projects and people too. To top it all of SharePoint is constantly changing especially in 365 so you are constantly learning and expected to know your stuff when they have an issue. It's recommended to go perm in a selected field for a few year and then contract. In SharePoint make it at least 5 years as you'll be found out quite fast by the client. Also getting £500+ in SharePoint is mainly around 365 so expect azure, 365 forms, sharepoint, flow, bi, powerapps and onedrive/outlook dev in the mix hence the price.

In the last few years it's been flooded with idiot contractors who mess up projects and people like me have to come in and sort it out. I guess that is what you get for paying cheap! Or Indian firms like wipro who majorly mess up projects and so far stuck up own ass with outdated solutions.

Interesting stuff. Cheers for the info. TBH considering how much of a nightmare sharepoint was when I first tried dev on it I am not sure it's worth the extra cash...

[hgllgh]

Ive notices a number ob BA roles that have really low rates...300 or below. But also quite a few on the £300 - £375 range (London) So they must be cofident that they will get takers at these low rates. Who's taking them? If you live in London, its a pittance.

[cosmic]

Yeah, I'm always expanding my skillset by choosing jobs that involve valuable technology. But it's not massively viable. I mean you can learn something very niche but contractors are (supposed to be) experts in their field, I wouldn't feel confident doing something I've just learned on my own on £400+/day, I wouldn't have all the experience required to understand common issues and build the correct architecture. And anything more niche means there's generally little call for it. Like, I could go and learn FORTRAN or something and maybe a gig will come up one day at £700/day but I'd be a fortran n00b, the timing for landing such a gig, I'd have to be on the bench at exactly the right time and not have anyone who's like 60 years old with 20 years of experience beating me and my zero experience to the job.

I've done some searches, if I learned something like sharepoint or dynamics I might get 500+ but could I realistically get a job doing something I have no commercial experience with? Can you even learn something like that on your own? I am not convinced. I did a bunch of python tutorials from pluralsight and I have a general idea of how to write python stuff, but if you sat me down and said write a simple application, it would take me a long time to trawl through what I'd learned and put it all together. No way I'd be able to pass an interview for a python gig.

400/day is decent though, the highest I can see on jobserve is ~550 for SC cleared niche tech. It's something to aim for, I guess. Although most high paying gigs on job sites are fake, I can sorta believe the ones with niche tech might not be.

Yes on point. I am a contractor (365/sharepoint) and can tell you it's not easy to just get into and contract! You not only need to know how to code in multiple languages but also administer, test and architect. I project manage projects and people too. To top it all of SharePoint is constantly changing especially in 365 so you are constantly learning and expected to know your stuff when they have an issue. It's recommended to go perm in a selected field for a few year and then contract. In SharePoint make it at least 5 years as you'll be found out quite fast by the client. Also getting £500+ in SharePoint is mainly around 365 so expect azure, 365 forms, sharepoint, flow, bi, powerapps and onedrive/outlook dev in the mix hence the price.

In the last few years it's been flooded with idiot contractors who mess up projects and people like me have to come in and sort it out. I guess that is what you get for paying cheap! Or Indian firms like wipro who majorly mess up projects and so far stuck up own ass with outdated solutions.

[Hobosapien]

... I wish I could say it was easy work, but ask anyone if working on a checkout in tesco when there are no customers is fun, to sit there for 8 hours bored out of your mind... hmmm....

I prefer to keep busy so if the client has little or no project work for a while I take the opportunity to 'clock off', saving the client some budget too, instead of trying to look busy while being bored to near death. Helps for working practices outside IR35 too when can show you are not getting paid when nothing productive to do relevant to the project you are contracted for.

As for the Tesco analogy, if the checkout person wants to stay busy then they go to a busier store. Every lidl helps.

[contractorinatractor]

Yeah, I'm always expanding my skillset by choosing jobs that involve valuable technology. But it's not massively viable. I mean you can learn something very niche but contractors are (supposed to be) experts in their field, I wouldn't feel confident doing something I've just learned on my own on £400+/day, I wouldn't have all the experience required to understand common issues and build the correct architecture. And anything more niche means there's generally little call for it. Like, I could go and learn FORTRAN or something and maybe a gig will come up one day at £700/day but I'd be a fortran n00b, the timing for landing such a gig, I'd have to be on the bench at exactly the right time and not have anyone who's like 60 years old with 20 years of experience beating me and my zero experience to the job.

I've done some searches, if I learned something like sharepoint or dynamics I might get 500+ but could I realistically get a job doing something I have no commercial experience with? Can you even learn something like that on your own? I am not convinced. I did a bunch of python tutorials from pluralsight and I have a general idea of how to write python stuff, but if you sat me down and said write a simple application, it would take me a long time to trawl through what I'd learned and put it all together. No way I'd be able to pass an interview for a python gig.

400/day is decent though, the highest I can see on jobserve is ~550 for SC cleared niche tech. It's something to aim for, I guess. Although most high paying gigs on job sites are fake, I can sorta believe the ones with niche tech might not be.

The secret is to diversify by accepting a lower gig in a niche area and then work your way up whilst trying to find a gif that encompasses more skills.

If there's one thing we all hate in gigs it's contractors who flat out lie. No need to do that, but try to offer to diversify at a client at renewal time. If you're a trusted contractor they'll perhaps let you stick yourself into new programmes and projects.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

As a contractor, what annoys me about other contractors is that they keep their head down to keep their contract at any cost. Sometimes to the detriment of delivery or how we are all treated.

In my last project (AWS Migration), there was a permie senior manager who was an absolute bully. There were no results though because he was also a moron (the two often go hand in hand). He ruined the project, good people left and contractors in senior positions just watched the whole thing, enabling it, lest they rocked the boat.

Been in that position though, permie architect coming up with the most *stupid* decisions, I highlighted why they were stupid and he went nuts saying he was in charge etc.

My rule is I will highlight problems like this once, clearly, and then if they go against it I will dole out the rope to hang themselves with. I'm running a business, not a charity. I don't want to lose my gig because of someone's ego.

People saying workload is increasing but honestly I find that companies are turning to contractors because they have *no idea how to run their business*. Most of my gigs I am barely working at all, I go absolutely spare sometimes. Currently gig, first two weeks they didn't have me set up properly with licenses so I just sat there collecting money. Cost them about £2k before I was up and running, and they had *three weeks* notice that I was starting because they pushed my start date forward twice.

This is a pretty common occurrence. Often there to plug a gap when dev teams walk out, been in that situation a couple of times. Why do they walk out? Absolutely dire project management. So I'm given a task to do, I do it, and then they spend the days bickering over what to do next and I end up twiddling my thumbs waiting for the next chunk of the project. I wish I could say it was easy work, but ask anyone if working on a checkout in tesco when there are no customers is fun, to sit there for 8 hours bored out of your mind... hmmm....

Still, I find a way to cope

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

I would say that isn't a great rate. You need to diversify your skillset and try new things. Find the best rates for technologies in software within your area and learn those. I've did this to raise the rate ceiling, but there is absolutely a ceiling and it seems it's lowering with inflation as the years pass by.

Yeah, I'm always expanding my skillset by choosing jobs that involve valuable technology. But it's not massively viable. I mean you can learn something very niche but contractors are (supposed to be) experts in their field, I wouldn't feel confident doing something I've just learned on my own on £400+/day, I wouldn't have all the experience required to understand common issues and build the correct architecture. And anything more niche means there's generally little call for it. Like, I could go and learn FORTRAN or something and maybe a gig will come up one day at £700/day but I'd be a fortran n00b, the timing for landing such a gig, I'd have to be on the bench at exactly the right time and not have anyone who's like 60 years old with 20 years of experience beating me and my zero experience to the job.

I've done some searches, if I learned something like sharepoint or dynamics I might get 500+ but could I realistically get a job doing something I have no commercial experience with? Can you even learn something like that on your own? I am not convinced. I did a bunch of python tutorials from pluralsight and I have a general idea of how to write python stuff, but if you sat me down and said write a simple application, it would take me a long time to trawl through what I'd learned and put it all together. No way I'd be able to pass an interview for a python gig.

400/day is decent though, the highest I can see on jobserve is ~550 for SC cleared niche tech. It's something to aim for, I guess. Although most high paying gigs on job sites are fake, I can sorta believe the ones with niche tech might not be.