Reply to: Contract Terms

[BR14]

Agree, but it's doubling the amount of time I spend on invoicing which I loathe at the best of times!


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AYCOTBAC???

[openshac]

Digitally signing a contract is common these days but I'd insist on an actual copy for myself for future reference, not one that can only be accessed via a portal

They were adamant it was impossible for them to generate an actual contract. Now or later. Call me old fashioned but I kinda don't feel comfortable not have a piece of paper signed by them.

And I'd want a paper trail as proof or else someone can say I just made it up. I wouldn't settle for copying and pasting the contract from a portal myself. I'd insist they do it and at least send it to me in an email

In the end they copied and pasted the various parts of the contract and emailed it to me in separate documents.

I also have every contract checked by a 3rd party before signing so I must have a copy to do that

I've had no issue with standing my ground in the past, even when it holds up the starting process, in order to get a contract checked and I've yet to see one that doesn't have some mistakes in it

Agreed I got it checked just getting them to clarify the "Services" section. They were lazy a essentially put "development stuff"!

Invoicing seems to be hit and miss for me lately. Some agencies want you to create your own invoice then bill them, others will create them for you

Self invoicing does simplify things a lot for some people but like yourself I have to create my own invoices regardless because of the accountancy system I use

It only takes a few more minutes of my time so what I do is create an invoice on the accountancy system but use the invoice number from the portal so there is a "paper" trail to follow

Agree, but it's doubling the amount of time I spend on invoicing which I loathe at the best of times!

Then at month end I download their own version of the invoicing as additional proof

No thought of doing that. Was always worried that having two invoices and meant having two tax points which was not legal.

I haven't seen anything about fines in contracts so far, but I assume they're talking about being able to fine you if you don't create an invoice on time?

Makes sense

It seems a bit much but what's the alternative, no work?

Or get the contract changed.

If you don't file an invoice on time you can't get paid but neither can they. For big agencies with lots of people on their books I suppose that could have problems with their cash flow and projections but there may be something in the contract they have with the end client that requires them to pass any costs like this on to you

It wouldn't bother me as I'm very methodical but that's you're the one who has to accept or reject

Agreed.

[AnotherJohnDoe]

I've been asked to sign a contract and had a couple of questions regarding the terms. Am I being reasonable or should be aware of any red flags.

Portal Contract
The agency (Lorien) refuse to email me a contract. They said I have to view it (in separate sections) on their online portal. Signing it seems to be just a click of an Accept button.

Is it reasonable to expect a PDF contract so that I can get it reviewed?

What will my copy of the contract look like?

Portal Invoicing
The contract demands that I invoice through their portal. I typically send all my invoices at the end of the month using my own accountancy system.

Has anyone had any luck getting Lorian to accept monthly "contractor generated" invoices?

Fines/Non Payment for Late Invoices
They want me to agree to fines and non-payment if an invoice is late. Now I'm not planning on submitting late invoices but this seems completely unreasonable.

Does this seem equitable?

Apologies, I realise there are quite a few separate questions there!

Digitally signing a contract is common these days but I'd insist on an actual copy for myself for future reference, not one that can only be accessed via a portal

And I'd want a paper trail as proof or else someone can say I just made it up. I wouldn't settle for copying and pasting the contract from a portal myself. I'd insist they do it and at least send it to me in an email

I also have every contract checked by a 3rd party before signing so I must have a copy to do that

I've had no issue with standing my ground in the past, even when it holds up the starting process, in order to get a contract checked and I've yet to see one that doesn't have some mistakes in it

Invoicing seems to be hit and miss for me lately. Some agencies want you to create your own invoice then bill them, others will create them for you

Self invoicing does simplify things a lot for some people but like yourself I have to create my own invoices regardless because of the accountancy system I use

It only takes a few more minutes of my time so what I do is create an invoice on the accountancy system but use the invoice number from the portal so there is a "paper" trail to follow

Then at month end I download their own version of the invoicing as additional proof

I haven't seen anything about fines in contracts so far, but I assume they're talking about being able to fine you if you don't create an invoice on time?

It seems a bit much but what's the alternative, no work?

If you don't file an invoice on time you can't get paid but neither can they. For big agencies with lots of people on their books I suppose that could have problems with their cash flow and projections but there may be something in the contract they have with the end client that requires them to pass any costs like this on to you

It wouldn't bother me as I'm very methodical but that's you're the one who has to accept or reject

[northernladuk]

Property contracts are different from commercial e.g. B2B and consumer contracts. So what washes in the world of property doesn't tally with other forms of contract law.

Not too sure that's totally relevant. The method of delivery and agreement are more or less the same. Contract offered, read and signed by other party. The content doesn't really matter. It's that process that's changing.

[SueEllen]

I had the same last time I rented a property so looks like it's going to be pretty standard going forward. Made the process pretty slick but odd not getting a copy of something in your grubby mitt (or inbox)

Property contracts are different from commercial e.g. B2B and consumer contracts. So what washes in the world of property doesn't tally with other forms of contract law.

[billybiro]

I've just tried that but they said it was "impossible" to provide me with a copy. All they were prepared to do was copy and paste from the portal into a Word doc for me.

Tell them, verbally, that you accept the contract and the T&C's but that it's "impossible" for you to check the online checkbox indicating such.

[washed up contractor]

I've just tried that but they said it was "impossible" to provide me with a copy. All they were prepared to do was copy and paste from the portal into a Word doc for me.

Tell them you want a physical copy or ability to download a copy, as you need it for contract review \ your records etc or, the deal is off. Contact the client and let them know 'their' agency is refusing to give you a copy of the contract and much as you want to work with them,may not be able to without a physical copy.

[Age quod agis]

I had the same last time I rented a property so looks like it's going to be pretty standard going forward. Made the process pretty slick but odd not getting a copy of something in your grubby mitt (or inbox)

Yes, all very slick.

With Harvey Nash , I did get the contract emailed to me after I electronically signed it.

[northernladuk]

I've just tried that but they said it was "impossible" to provide me with a copy. All they were prepared to do was copy and paste from the portal into a Word doc for me.

I had the same last time I rented a property so looks like it's going to be pretty standard going forward. Made the process pretty slick but odd not getting a copy of something in your grubby mitt (or inbox)

[openshac]

Regarding the copy of the contract, you could try arguing about their Terms & Conditions here

https://www.lorien.co.uk/terms

which state..



Try arguing a portal makes it available but it isn't being provided with a copy.

I've just tried that but they said it was "impossible" to provide me with a copy. All they were prepared to do was copy and paste from the portal into a Word doc for me.

[openshac]

Regarding the copy of the contract, you could try arguing about their Terms & Conditions here

https://www.lorien.co.uk/terms

which state..



Try arguing a portal makes it available but it isn't being provided with a copy.

NLUK - amazing!

Seriously you are too good to be on here! Appreciated nonetheless.

[openshac]

Normally, you will either be emailed a copy once they have signed it, or they will send you a link where you can download it from.


It's a few minutes extra work for you.
Sending invoices to smaller clients/agents is the norm, but larger agencies invest in online systems that speed up the process of invoicing the end client and make it easier for them to process payments to their contractors

Thanks, makes sense.

[northernladuk]

Regarding the copy of the contract, you could try arguing about their Terms & Conditions here

https://www.lorien.co.uk/terms

which state..

Each assignment or placement made through Lorien will be subject to our standard contract. Unless we have a different written agreement with you, our standard contract will apply. All prospective workers, employers and clients for whom we arrange assignments or placements will be provided with a copy of the contract applicable to them at or following registration.

Try arguing a portal makes it available but it isn't being provided with a copy.

[WTFH]

I can't see how I would even be able to keep a document on file one I click the accept button!

Normally, you will either be emailed a copy once they have signed it, or they will send you a link where you can download it from.

It's just extra hassle for me.
I have always simply sent my clients an invoice at the end of each month. I figured (maybe wrongly) that it was standard business practice.

It's a few minutes extra work for you.
Sending invoices to smaller clients/agents is the norm, but larger agencies invest in online systems that speed up the process of invoicing the end client and make it easier for them to process payments to their contractors

[openshac]

Have you gone on to the portal and tried downloading the contract from there? Most of the portal systems I have seen allow that functionality. You may need to open the file first, then download it.

Nope, unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be an option.

I can't see how I would even be able to keep a document on file one I click the accept button!

What is your issue with using their invoicing portal?

It's just extra hassle for me.
I have always simply sent my clients an invoice at the end of each month. I figured (maybe wrongly) that it was standard business practice.

Without knowing the details of what they are saying, it's hard to know whether it is "equitable", "unreasonable" or "completely unreasonable"

Sorry if that hasn't been much help, but I've had several contracts where the contract itself has been online and where the agency has had an online portal for timesheets to create invoices.

If you're really concerned about it, walk away from the contract. Large agencies don't tend to be as flexible as smaller ones.

No, thanks for your time and advice.