Reply to: Rate Negotiate due to change in Requirements (on-call)

[northernladuk]

Even if they have first refusal on my new terms and decline it?

I've no idea that means but I'd think the agency has non compete/ anti poaching/handcuff clauses so can't swap clients themselves.

[aft]

If the agent stands to lose money when you do whatever then yes the handcuff will stand. How he's going to prove it with such a long chain I'm not sure but they will kick up a stink either way.

Even if they have first refusal on my new terms and decline it?

[northernladuk]

If the agent stands to lose money when you do whatever then yes the handcuff will stand. How he's going to prove it with such a long chain I'm not sure but they will kick up a stink either way.

[aft]

Thanks for all the advice. It's all up in the air at the moment so we will see how it lands.

While I have your attention there's something else I'm wondering;

Being a newb I signed the opt out, - then looked it up 5 minutes afterwards and instantly regretted it - yes I'm a fool, I did take a bit more time over the contract itself after realising I'd made a mistake.

Anyway I am in a chain that looks like this:

end client -> big IT corp -> big agency -> small agency -> MyLtdCoTM (just kidding no TM)

My contract includes a restriction clause around cutting the agent out of the deal.

Does that mean I can't work for anyone else in the chain for 6 months?

Hypothetical: - the 3 corps in the middle don't want to drop their margins because they're on to a very good thing. End client has arrangements in place with ConsultancyFirm that sub-contracts work out. If I made an engagement with ConsultancyFirm who sent me to end client, would I be in breach of the restriction? - Now because they wont budge on on-call, or in 6 months because they try to fleece me again in renewal.

It feels to me like big corp IT is the client - they could deploy me to any of their many clients, if they wanted to, although that may have ir-35 implications that is out of scope for this discussion. I suppose without seeing what the contract between BigITCorp and end client looks like it's difficult to say.

I guess my thoughts are if things turn south with the agency(s) then would it be possible to continue without them for same end client?

Edit: Just looked at the contract and it specifies the client as BigITCorp and that is also stated on the opt out.

[perplexed]

I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).

It never ceases to amaze me that some clients fail to notice that the word "contractor" contains the key word "contract". Well, that and "or" but the latter isn't important enough to make an attempt of a joke from.

[northernladyuk]

I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).

PC is well regarded as a hard-nosed businessman, and clients know better than to pull anything on him.

[Lance]

TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.

I find it bizarre that any contractor would accept this.
Even as a permie I didn't like it as you are basically trusting your employer to give you extra time off. Seeing as they can refuse your leave anyway, and that days earned by TOIL will be the ones they can shirk paying at year end if you've not used all your leave, you're asking to be shafted.

The reality is the client is asking you to give them a discount of x days today on the non-contracted promise of paying the discount back later. Good luck getting it if you fall out (or leave, or the 'TOIL' bill gets large enough for them to just not sign the timesheet later).

[northernladuk]

Also reminds me of another client. Called all contractors into meeting blah blah made up blah

Then they sorted contract with the agency. 1.5x blah blah didn't happen blah blah

Lets just say the riot was blah blah my story so I'll tell it how I want blah blah.

FTFY

You didn't moan about it on here so it didn't happen.

[northernladuk]

TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.

Very much this. Horrible term to be using. I mean.. Time off??

[northernladyuk]

I've worked for clients who'd have moaned if I billed more than a day. Others who would have said no budget for more than a day and said you can have the rest in TOIL (the moan when I bill for two days off and ask where it came from!)

TOIL is a really weird (and distressingly permie) way of defining it. Surely the correct way to do it is to bill for the two days but have it agreed in the contract that the services supplied will not exceed 5 days per week.

[psychocandy]

If it is likely to go wrong it might not be too bad.

I was once on a daily rate. I worked 24 hours and billed 3 days for it.

I hope you are looking round for another gig?

I've worked for clients who'd have moaned if I billed more than a day. Others who would have said no budget for more than a day and said you can have the rest in TOIL (the moan when I bill for two days off and ask where it came from!)

[northernladyuk]

Being given extra duties after you've signed the contract and the fact they can't recruit a permie so they go a contractor sounds like you've got some big IR35 problems.

What does your contract say about all these extra duties? I imagine it's just a job spec rather than a defined list of deliverables which just adds to your problems.

As always it depends. If this is on-call to support an implementation (e.g. cut over period) it might be OK. This could always have been within the scope of project / deliverable based duties, but it is now clear what the required working arrangements are. This should be manageable outside IR35 if the OP is canny about how the arrangements are structured, but it is tough when you're new at the game. Perfectly reasonable IMO to then negotiate a rate for this work (IANAL etc.).

If it is a 'can you pitch into help BAU support' request, then that's a massive red flag.

Nice to have an interesting well posed question. Best of luck, OP.

[BrilloPad]

If it is likely to go wrong it might not be too bad.

I was once on a daily rate. I worked 24 hours and billed 3 days for it.

I hope you are looking round for another gig?

[psychocandy]

Also reminds me of another client. Called all contractors into meeting. Said right we're covering 24/7 for next few weeks so you've all got to do 12 hour shifts, night and day and weekends. There was almost a riot because everyone assumed it was flat rate.

Then they sorted contract with the agency. 1.5x for 12 hours. 1.5 times for nights. 1.5 times extra for satrdays. 2.0 times extra for sundays. All cumulative. Work that one out - for a 12 hour sunday night they paid 1.5x1.5x2.0 hours = 4.5 days.

Lets just say the riot was avoided! I worked a sunday night, mon ,tues, wed = pretty much over 11 days billed. Knackered mind and alas it was only for a week.

[psychocandy]

Always problematic when this sort of thing like on call comes up. To be honest, I generally have no problems with clients calling me out of hours occasionally if its just a quick call. I've even done on-call once or twice adhoc for free if the client is good to me.

Current client is and is happy for me to bill TOIL x1.5 whenever I work extra which they dont have to. So I'm ok to be flexible. (yes its inside IR35).

But if it becomes formal oncall rota then something needs sorting. In the past, I've found some clients will think its ok to pay same as permies get (£30 or something crap like that!). Umm no. Or expect it for free as part of the deal.

One client I had said they'd pay me for any time I spent if I got called. Tidy thought I. BUT they were only willing to pay for time actually on site. i.e. I'd have to drive 50 miles for an hours, could be on site for 30 mins, drive home and get 1/2 hour. Umm no.