Reply to: Agency contract length differs

[bobdobbs]

I am in exactly the same situation, agency said 6 months, gov-client says actually 8 weeks.

gov-client blames this on outsource-company who runs their recruitment, outsource-company blames gov-client.

In my previous role I was with parent-agency.. and exactly the same thing happened.

I wouldn't have taken this role had I known parent-agency owned agency.

The agent at the previous role told me variously that they don't work for me, but the client and that this is standard practice(!).

I feel like I've been mis-sold, they should pay me some £ for the unexpected gap I now have, agency said they will "do our best to fullfill the contract", but it's not good enough.

[jakestar]

ok fair enough i accept the general principle that the length of renewal lodged with the end client is, to some degree irrelevant to what i signed with the agency. I admit my hope was that this was not the case and the clients understanding of contract length had some bearing on my contracted end date. The general opinion is it has no effect (if indeed end dates matter at all). I signed 6 with the agency so 6 it is. I am not bothered about increasing the rate, that is not the issue. youll have to take my word on that. the rate was about the one thing they were honest about.

The agency have explained the date difference as an administrative cock up in the end client systems, so i will live with that and the situation of the contract as it is currently. The only other option is to give notice but i dont want to do that if humanly possible, i have never quit a contract before and i dont want to start now.

if only to be a premiership footballer eh and simply give the contract the credence of fresh air....

[SueEllen]

by all means move it - i wasnt sure where to post it as the section you mentions states its for:

For IT contractor companies to discuss business and contract opportunities.

this is neither a business nor a contract opportunity. I couldnt give a stuff if people find this p!ss take worthy. i was hoping to get some advice. i have i guess but i am beginning to regret bothering asking given the raging assumptions people seem to be making.

Posters answering you individually in some cases and in total have been contracting a long time so have seen various agency "practices".

If you refuse to give specific information because it is delicate and may expose who you are in real life then we can only go on our experience, what you call assumptions.

[NotAllThere]

Moved. My bad - didn't spot the wrong location when I approved the initial post. Still, no harm done.

Hypothetically speaking; if the client stated they no longer wished to renew on the 30th May would the agency really pay my contracted notice of 1 month with no end client payment??? really? would they?

No. They'd find a way to avoid it.

As an aside im sure hmrc would beg to differ with you on this?

Disagree with what? What HMRC may or may not think has no bearing on your original question. Your question is about contract law as it applies to your contract - not a hypothetical contract constructed by HMRC.

My question is the 'contract end date' of 31st sent to me by the end client really a valid 'contract end date'. the prevailing opinion would appear to be no.

There is no such thing as a valid end date in most contractor contracts, if by valid you mean "must be adhered to". In practice, the client (and hence the agency) are able to can you at any time. Even after one month.

The end date expresses an intent. If the client intend to keep you for six months (i.e. have every intent from the beginning of renewing after 3 months, all being well), then great, you've nothing to worry about. If not, then you've lost nothing over if the end date had been 3 months. What you can't do, without being in breach, is quit after 3 months without giving whatever notice is stipulated. By the same reasoning, you're on a hiding to nothing trying to negotiate a rate rise or contract change after three months. Your contract stipulates 6.

You could go after the agency for misrepresentation on the grounds you wouldn't have taken the contract if you'd known it wasn't 6 months, it was only 3 - if you won, they'd be liable for the losses caused by the early termination of your contract.

[jakestar]

by all means move it - i wasnt sure where to post it as the section you mentions states its for:

For IT contractor companies to discuss business and contract opportunities.

this is neither a business nor a contract opportunity. I couldnt give a stuff if people find this p!ss take worthy. i was hoping to get some advice. i have i guess but i am beginning to regret bothering asking given the raging assumptions people seem to be making.

[SueEllen]

As i said i dont want to go into details, there are lots of elements of the way the client conducts its business which were not explained to me and one of them is the precise issue you identify. I do not think the client, IN ACTUAL PRACTICE, distinguishes between contractors and permanents well enough and i would like to amend this. Not all of this stuff goes in contracts. As you well know it is also about working practices and risk therein....'

The agency won't explain this to you because 9 times out of 10 they don't know themselves. It leaves it up to u at interview stage to ask them questions about their working practices hoping they will be open enough to tell you.

Anyway this is off thread and wasnt what i originally asked about. I am not some faithless contractor who has simply decided i 'dont like' this particular contract. Youll have to trust me on this being that you dont know me, or my contract circumstances, beyond what i disclose on this forum. I have been renewed many times before and held many contracts before but never come across, or heard about, client/agency level contracts being differing lengths to the agency/contractor one.

There is a first time for everything and as you have found out this isn't rare.

Also in future if you have a serious thread DO NOT post it in "General" post something like this in "Business/contracts". You have been lucky as being a bank holiday loads of people are away who would have ripped the p*ss out of you.

[jakestar]

As i said i dont want to go into details, there are lots of elements of the way the client conducts its business which were not explained to me and one of them is the precise issue you identify. I do not think the client, IN ACTUAL PRACTICE, distinguishes between contractors and permanents well enough and i would like to amend this. Not all of this stuff goes in contracts. As you well know it is also about working practices and risk therein....

Anyway this is off thread and wasnt what i originally asked about. I am not some faithless contractor who has simply decided i 'dont like' this particular contract. Youll have to trust me on this being that you dont know me, or my contract circumstances, beyond what i disclose on this forum. I have been renewed many times before and held many contracts before but never come across, or heard about, client/agency level contracts being differing lengths to the agency/contractor one.

[SueEllen]

i dont wish to get into a snarky exchange on this. Suffice it to say the contract end date i am quoted by the client has MY name next to it, not the agencies, or 'a representative of..'. surely if the client has a contract with the agency it should explicitly state their name - not mine? no?

It is none of your business how the client deals with contractors and their contract lengths internally.

What is your business is that they distinguish between you and their permanent employees.

Also as i stated again which you seem not to have understood the terms of the contract were not as laid out to me by the agent and id like to change them without resorting to breaking my contract.

When you get a contract before you start you have a chance to review it, ask them about any terms you don't understand and ask for any that your reviewer tells you are very detrimental to you to be changed. Some agencies try and trick contractors into not having time to review the contact and you need to make it perfectly clear to them that is not acceptable.

[jakestar]

i dont wish to get into a snarky exchange on this. Suffice it to say the contract end date i am quoted by the client has MY name next to it, not the agencies, or 'a representative of..'. surely if the client has a contract with the agency it should explicitly state their name - not mine? no?

Also as i stated again which you seem not to have understood the terms of the contract were not as laid out to me by the agent and id like to change them without resorting to breaking my contract.

[SueEllen]

If you read one of my replies early and bothered to understand it you would say I stated you can ask at renewal after 6 months for the contracts to be aligned.

In regards to negotiating other things the agency will tell you to get lost as you haven't been at the client long enough and renewed multiple times by them.

[jakestar]

i didnt really want to get into a discussion on my circumstances on this contract, it isnt as it was advertised by the agent and ive only discovered this when beginning the engagement. Im sure weve all had contracts that were fairly toxic and if there is an opportunity to now renogotiate earlier than the renewal stated with the agency, i would take it willingly for the reasons i have just outlined - as i am perfectly entitled to. i do wish people wouldnt jump to raging assumptions about this. I ahvent put these details in as i dont think they are relevant to the question i was asking. Im well aware of the usual etiquette for undertaking renewals and asking for rate increases but as ive stated this isnt a 'normal' contract for me. every one of us is perfectly entitled to negotiate at renewal time if the circumstances of the contract are not to the contractors liking. If the contractor cannot change the Ts and Cs he/she is then entitled to leave without rancour. My question is the 'contract end date' of 31st sent to me by the end client really a valid 'contract end date'. the prevailing opinion would appear to be no.

At any rate the opinion of the few people who have replied who have found out renewals werent the same between client and agency seems to be to accept the status quo. It is my personal and professional opinion that the contract lengths should match between agency and client and contractor and client, or else why bother with a contract term at all...? But as noone has been through this before and been able to renegotiate ill take that under advisement.

In addition to this the automated note ive received from the end client clearly states in the email 'contract end date' of 31st may. Seems a bit more than just a cyclical admin thing?

[northernladuk]

Many clients work on 3 month cycles but the negotiations between the client and the agent can agree more. The fact it's automated is the red herring here I expect. What an automated system that works in 3 month cycles and what the client/agent have agreed could be completely different animals.

[SlipTheJab]

Trying to get a few more quid out of the client when you've only been there 5 minutes (give or take 3 months) is taking the p!ss really, a year or so fair enough but even then it's not guaranteed by any means. I got my second renewal recently after 9 months in, didn't even consider asking for more moolah, if they renew again I will weigh up whether to up my rate but that's not guaranteed by any means.

[SueEllen]

ok fine, i have to abide by the Ts & Cs in the agency contract i signed. thats fine.

However does anyone have any experience of similar situation whereby they didnt have to abide by the agency contract and the clients understanding of the contract length was applied?

I could always hand in my notice but i dont want to do this as i agreed 6 months so fair enough. But if this presents me with an opportunity to renegotiate id be foolish not to take it....?

What do you need to renegotiate?

You should have negotiated for what you wanted in the beginning regardless of contract length.

If you got extended by a month you wouldn't be able to negotiate then. Extensions are generally not when you renegotiate things unless you have been their about a year.

Legally your contract is with the agency and the client's contract has nothing to do with you.

The only thing you should always ask for is that major terms in the agency to client contract, upper contract, are the same as in your to agency contract, lower contract, especially IR35 and intellectual property ones. This is where having a contract review comes in before agreeing to the contract.

Anyway now you know the client renews on a 3 month basis so if you want to stay after 6 months then you should find out from the client informally how long they want you for and point that out to the agency. Then tell the agency you want the length to match.

Btw I've had a contract where my contract was shorter than what was agreed with the client. There was a 10 working day hand over of work if I wanted to leave, which I found out when I wanted to leave. I've also had a contract like yours and found out that it was like that due to the to sign off processes with the client.

[squarepeg]

But if this presents me with an opportunity to renegotiate id be foolish not to take it....?

You'd be foolish not to have another job lined up just in case you get terminated to the client's understanding of the situation.