Reply to: Project Management - Certification.

[PermMCCon]

Might be nice to see, but I have interviewed plenty of people with certs who knew jack all, even though the CV sung to me too.
So, it then follows that I have picked and subsequently worked with great people some certificated, some non-certificated.

Which then leads me back to the same place, certificates don't really help

Annnnd I could say the same about CVs that sung / shouted "experience" and ended up being anything but... god awful interviews

The point is - in a market full of "experience", it doesn't hurt to have a few courses and such in your pocket.

[MrMarkyMark]

I think this one has got it right - there are a lot of people quoting "experience", but that doesn't help you when a recruiter is searching key words only...

The fact is, a lot of the big banks want to see a sensible mix of both:

- Solid, relevant experience
- Related courses / degrees / certificates / etc

Some have already mentioned that certain firms don't give two hoots about the courses. In my experience, this is not the case. Our experience and knowledge is number 1 for recruiters, but your "extras" (eg courses) comes a good second.

eg I have 20 x CVs in front of me. Invariably there will be a 3-4 that catches the eye. All have excellent relevant experience. All good solid 4 x CVs

A couple have bothered to do a few relevant courses on top of the extensive experience, while the others expect their experience to speak for itself. I'll pick for interviews the 2 who have just as good experience, but also kept their skills uptodate with courses / learning new stuff. Its nice to see.

Courses do not get you any job, but they help your CV (a tiny weeny bit, don't expect floods of offers just because of Prince2).

Might be nice to see, but I have interviewed plenty of people with certs who knew jack all, even though the CV sung to me too.
So, it then follows that I have picked and subsequently worked with great people some certificated, some non-certificated.

Which then leads me back to the same place, certificates don't really help

[PermMCCon]

I'd completely agree that to actually do a PM job then the key quality is experience.

To get a PM role, I think the answer is less straightforward. Some agencies / HR desks will filter cvs based on key words, and often PMP and Prince will be two of those keywords used for PM roles. Without either qualification on your cv, it simply won't get past that first hurdle to get to someone who can actually assess your cv properly.

FWIW I think you're unlikely to go wrong in the UK, as far as such keyword filtering is concerned, with "Prince2 practitioner" mentioned on your cv. (And some recruitment desks will actually check that your registration is current, with potential ramifications if not - banks are very fussy about anything which is perceived as misrepresentation on your cv)

I think this one has got it right - there are a lot of people quoting "experience", but that doesn't help you when a recruiter is searching key words only...

The fact is, a lot of the big banks want to see a sensible mix of both:

- Solid, relevant experience
- Related courses / degrees / certificates / etc

Some have already mentioned that certain firms don't give two hoots about the courses. In my experience, this is not the case. Our experience and knowledge is number 1 for recruiters, but your "extras" (eg courses) comes a good second.

eg I have 20 x CVs in front of me. Invariably there will be a 3-4 that catches the eye. All have excellent relevant experience. All good solid 4 x CVs

A couple have bothered to do a few relevant courses on top of the extensive experience, while the others expect their experience to speak for itself. I'll pick for interviews the 2 who have just as good experience, but also kept their skills uptodate with courses / learning new stuff. Its nice to see.

Courses do not get you any job, but they help your CV (a tiny weeny bit, don't expect floods of offers just because of Prince2).

[DanielRed]

I've heard from PMs "in the know" that PMP is sought after, Prince2 is a pre requisite but never really used and CSM can be useful in true Agile teams but so few are that it becomes (like Prince2) a theoretical qualification

On the subject of certification, I did see vouchers on Groupon recently for PM packages

[Lance]

True, but banks check every one in my experience.

PRINCE2 is its pure form is unworkable, IMO, in any case.

When I did Prince 2 years ago the main thing they taught was to learn which bits to ignore....

As for what you put on your CV..
If you put 'expired' next to a qualification you'll never be asked to prove it.

[MrMarkyMark]

On the other hand I've gained certs in PRINCE2 etc. told they were required for public sector roles. When I started I found its practice was nowhere to be seen.

Not sure there was ever much demand for PRINCE2, etc. outside public sector.

It seems to be a common practice for many to put these certifications on their c.v. even when they have expired. Having said that, I have seen such people hired and validity of certifications never checked.

True, but banks check every one in my experience.

PRINCE2 is its pure form is unworkable, IMO, in any case.

[ruasonid]

More than fussy, I have seen a few escorted offsite by security a number of times

On the other hand I've gained certs in PRINCE2 etc. told they were required for public sector roles. When I started I found its practice was nowhere to be seen.

Not sure there was ever much demand for PRINCE2, etc. outside public sector.

It seems to be a common practice for many to put these certifications on their c.v. even when they have expired. Having said that, I have seen such people hired and validity of certifications never checked.

[contractor475867]

These certifications are a box-ticking exercise.

Solid project management skills are learned on the job and are almost universally transferable between industries.

Unfortunately, recruiters and employers do not understand this at all and will filter by these keywords.

Thus, the more certificates you have, the more likely you will be selected for an interview.

What's worse, really, is that many companies put out extremely specific briefs, making it look like a Magento PM could not possibly, ever, manage a Sitecore build.

NEVER

[rjoe]

Prince2 teaches you some fundamentals, but good luck with tailoring it to real life, that's why XP is valuable.
With both, you're onto a winner.

[kaiser78]

I read recently that the PRINCE2 Practioner validity is to be reduced from 5 years to 3 years before having to re-certify. Not sure from when this kicks in but something to watch out for if need be.

[MrMarkyMark]

I'd completely agree that to actually do a PM job then the key quality is experience.

To get a PM role, I think the answer is less straightforward. Some agencies / HR desks will filter cvs based on key words, and often PMP and Prince will be two of those keywords used for PM roles. Without either qualification on your cv, it simply won't get past that first hurdle to get to someone who can actually assess your cv properly.

FWIW I think you're unlikely to go wrong in the UK, as far as such keyword filtering is concerned, with "Prince2 practitioner" mentioned on your cv. (And some recruitment desks will actually check that your registration is current, with potential ramifications if not - banks are very fussy about anything which is perceived as misrepresentation on your cv)

More than fussy, I have seen a few escorted offsite by security a number of times

[Bluenose]

Prince 2 is a tick in the box but it teaches you the foundations required to do the two MSP qualifications which I found to be far more interesting and rewarding to complete.

[DallasDad]

You are that old?

When I left school with my collection of CSEs there were still such things as proper apprenticeships
I did a four year indentured apprenticeship with Marconi Elliott

That was at a time when a lot of flight computers were still mechanical.
Slide rules were the norm.

It was even before the days of post it notes for draft critical path analysis so we had to improvise - blank beer mat type things were popular.

Eee it was hard then........ q month pythons cardboard box sketch.

[SueEllen]

I was joint 16th out of 17 at woodwork at school...

I hope you don't do any DIY at home.

[stek]

^^^ Experience ^^^
Plus I guess I could fall back on my CSE in Woodwork if absolutely necessary.

I was joint 16th out of 17 at woodwork at school...