Reply to: Is it bad not to have a signed/countersigned copy of a contract?

[Big Blue Plymouth]

do you have anything from them (even an email) that says they have agreed to the contract?

No.

But I will have once I've copied all the text from the online version, pasted into word and formatted it and put in 2 placeholders for my signature and the agent's signature.

What a palaver.

Like I said, this agent farms out back office stuff to an outfit called Sonovate & all they want me to do is click a button to confirm I accept the Ts and Cs of the contract.

[WTFH]

So are the agents saying they have not signed the contract with you?


If so, do you have anything from them (even an email) that says they have agreed to the contract?

[Scruff]

I've now got an agency telling me it's not possible to provide a countersigned contract.

As mentioned earlier, I need a copy as it's what mortgage companies etc ask to see when assessing an application.

I'm sure there are other ways verifying that I was in contract but I very much get the feeling this outfit is a one man band & who's to say they'll still be around when I need them to help me out some time down the line?

Their response is

"Unfortunately, the contracts have no place for counter signatures. Contracts are individually sent to the contractor and client"

This particular agency is using an outfit called Sonovate for all their back office operations.

So far not impressed.

Carbon60 per chance?

[Big Blue Plymouth]

Just trying to get my countersigned contract. Agent is using an outfit called Sonovate for all their back office operations.

Got this from them:

"Unfortunately, the contracts have no place for counter signatures. Contracts are individually sent to the contractor and client"

Will now have to do a screen grab of the online contract, paste it into Word and format it so I can sign it and send it over to the agent for a countersignature.

Not the end of the world but talk about jobsworths....

[ginjar]

I just wanted to close this off and note that I was paid as normal without any hassle.

Thanks again for all the advice and the links to reading on implied contracts - it can't hurt to be more clued up though hopefully it is something I will avoid repeating!

[northernladuk]

I am new here and just starting a contracting biz with my stepdad. I just wanted to stop by and say thanks for posting this! I would think that it would be essential that all parties have signed the contract and have copies. With that being said though, in the beginning it just seemed like a minor detail when dealing with individuals, so we just stuck to estimates and when someone agreed we took that as our confirmation. I think we will start working out contracts from now on. Thanks again!

If you are contracting then you can go look on the IPSE and QDOS websites. I believe both will offer templates but you might need to be an IPSE member to see theirs.

[Abbyj]

Lesson learned

I am new here and just starting a contracting biz with my stepdad. I just wanted to stop by and say thanks for posting this! I would think that it would be essential that all parties have signed the contract and have copies. With that being said though, in the beginning it just seemed like a minor detail when dealing with individuals, so we just stuck to estimates and when someone agreed we took that as our confirmation. I think we will start working out contracts from now on. Thanks again!

[northernladuk]

Thanks, that's encouraging. Two questions,

1. "The fact you turned up and the agent acknowledged I believe means there is a contract in place with the previous terms still in effect". - What do you mean by 'the agent acknowledged'? My time sheets have been signed off by the client (they are monthly and don't get signed off by agency, they just receive them at the end of the month and then bill the client. Are you suggesting that I need any further acknowledgement from the agency?

You need to hit google and start doing a bit of reading...

Contracting - Do I really need a contract? :: Contractor UK

Not all apply to your situation directly being an extension but good reading on the whole.

What you are interested in is an 'Implied Contract'

What is an 'Implied Contract '
An implied contract is a legal substitute for a contract. An implied contract is an agreement created by actions of the parties involved, but it is not written or spoken. This is a contract assumed to have been drawn. In this case, there is no written record nor any actual verbal agreement. A form of an implied contract is an implied warranty provided automatically by law. An implied warranty means that when a product is purchased, it is guaranteed to work for its ordinary purpose. For example, a refrigerator is fit to keep food cool.

You turn up, agent doesn't tell you otherwise, client is happy to have you on site. You have an implied contract to do work and get paid. Terms will normally be the last seen by the parties. Have a google for the details. It's complex so again better to avoid this situations if at all possible.

2. "What exists between the client had absolutely nothing to do with you. I wouldn't use that any kind of comfort." Could you expand on this, please? I get that the specific contractual arrangement between the client and agency doesn't in itself entitle me to anything from the agency - except that: My name (and company) appear under the 'Contractor to provide services' section of their contract. It would be odd for the agency to bill the client in respect of their contract while denying that I was providing services on behalf of the agency at that time.

I am talking about the contractual arrangements between the client and the agency, their payment terms, when the payments are made etc. None of this is your business. All you need to focus on is the contractual relationship between you and the agency. For example when giving notice you give notice to the agent, it's them you have the contract with, it's just polite to tell the client. Just a basic understanding of the parties in the chain. Just because the client pays the agency it doesn't guarantee you will be paid etc.

[RonBW]

Thanks, that's encouraging. Two questions,

1. "The fact you turned up and the agent acknowledged I believe means there is a contract in place with the previous terms still in effect". - What do you mean by 'the agent acknowledged'? My time sheets have been signed off by the client (they are monthly and don't get signed off by agency, they just receive them at the end of the month and then bill the client. Are you suggesting that I need any further acknowledgement from the agency?

Everyone has accepted the contract by conduct - have a Google for that, there's a case from donkeys years ago that set the precedent that hasn't been challenged successfully.

You don't need anything more from the agency.

[chopper]

Mine are all electronic now so how would that work?

When I did this last month, I sent them the unsigned contract and a screenshot of the portal's page showing 'Accepted' - the bank was OK with that.

[ginjar]

Thanks, that's encouraging. Two questions,

1. "The fact you turned up and the agent acknowledged I believe means there is a contract in place with the previous terms still in effect". - What do you mean by 'the agent acknowledged'? My time sheets have been signed off by the client (they are monthly and don't get signed off by agency, they just receive them at the end of the month and then bill the client. Are you suggesting that I need any further acknowledgement from the agency?

2. "What exists between the client had absolutely nothing to do with you. I wouldn't use that any kind of comfort." Could you expand on this, please? I get that the specific contractual arrangement between the client and agency doesn't in itself entitle me to anything from the agency - except that: My name (and company) appear under the 'Contractor to provide services' section of their contract. It would be odd for the agency to bill the client in respect of their contract while denying that I was providing services on behalf of the agency at that time.

[northernladuk]

The fact you turned up and the agent acknowledged I believe means there is a contract in place with the previous terms still in effect so you are in the clear. This and the emails of acceptance etc. You should be fine. If it does all go Pete Tong you've just got more of an argument on than if you could rub their noses in to a paper document. You've given them leeway to try it on but you should come out OK.

Just one thing. What exists between the client had absolutely nothing to do with you. I wouldn't use that any kind of comfort.

[ginjar]

It is my fault I didn't get this sorted. All I can say is:

* The contract had been extended many times, always with the same terms.
* In the past, when I had sent the agency a copy to countersign, it often seemed to be more faff than it ought to have been.
* I saw the signed copy sent by the client to the agency & guess I figured, well, we've all agreed to this, this is fine.
* There was a lot else going on & we were discussing possible terms of future work, which didn't pan out, so my attention was mostly on that.

Sorry if I was less than clear in the opening post viz. not insisting on getting [the contract] countersigned - obvs I am not feeling great about this - however it turns out, it will be a lesson learned.

The fundamentals are: The client will pay the agency for the work & we have an agreement evidenced by emails, even if there is no physical signature on the document between me and the agency.

How strong a position would I be in assuming, worst case scenario, that the agency didn't want to pay?

I just want to know what I should do now and move on.

[WTFH]

So, you didn't have a countersigned document because you hadn't sent them a signed one? It's not their fault. If you don't sign, they have nothing to countersign.

[ginjar]

Thanks for the advice.

In fact I didn't send them a signed copy (until last week) but, as I say, it is evident from the e-mail exchange that I am accepting the extension*. So yes, not smart.

* I have asked for the agency to facilitate the extension, they have sent it to me, I thank them and tell them who to send their contract with the client to. This is returned to the agency signed by the client. My hours are logged in the usual way.