Reply to: Things to check and/or negotiate in a new contract?

[Criticular]

Answering to my own question: payment terms

[Old Greg]

They have their favourite contractors. By that I mean the ones that get extensions and don't cause much fuss. Far more likely to get submitted. Logical, I know, but I guess it pays not to treat all agents with the contempt that they all deserve.

FTFY

[LondonManc]

Agree. Is there anything else interesting you learned from them?

They have their favourite contractors. By that I mean the ones that get extensions and don't cause much fuss. Far more likely to get submitted. Logical, I know, but I guess it pays not to treat all agents with the contempt that only some deserve.

[Criticular]

Amazing what you learn after a few pints with agents

Agree. Is there anything else interesting you learned from them?

[LondonManc]

- Rate
- Payment terms
- Notice period
- IR35

(roughly in that order, although there can be trade-off between each)

Not so fussed with handcuff clauses because in reality that's down to client attitude and their relationship with the agent.



For me, b) because if the client no longer wants me then I'd rather not them fussing about trying to give me work that I didn't sign up to (most likely) or concocting stories of poor conduct. And because if I do want/need to bail early then it's easier to fend off threats of contract breach from the agent.

I'd rather have IR35 friendly than notice period.

As others have said, an amicable exit can be negotiated if necessary. Notice from their side is irrelevant. If they want you offsite, they'll dictate when you go off site. Agent will then get involved if required to help discuss the exit strategy. Amazing what you learn after a few pints with agents

[garethevans1986]

Copyright and IPR clauses.

[Contreras]

What do you look for and try to renegotiate in a new contract?
Let me start:
- being paid weekly rather than monthly
- minimise period of time when you cannot work directly with a client if they want your service again
- how about notice periods?
- what else?

- Rate
- Payment terms
- Notice period
- IR35

(roughly in that order, although there can be trade-off between each)

Not so fussed with handcuff clauses because in reality that's down to client attitude and their relationship with the agent.

So would you want:
(a) No mention of notice period on your contract,
(b) Shortest possible notice period,
(c) Longest possible notice period?

For me, b) because if the client no longer wants me then I'd rather not them fussing about trying to give me work that I didn't sign up to (most likely) or concocting stories of poor conduct. And because if I do want/need to bail early then it's easier to fend off threats of contract breach from the agent.

[Contreras]

More often than not you don't get the choice. Many clients shy away from short notices or put an uneven one for fairly obvious reasons. They can bin you on the spot whatever the notice there is if they are smart so no benefit to them to have really short notices

You know, I'm not so sure that most clients really understand that. Certainly not the one's I've dealt with.

All the above but we mustn't forget the notice period is in the contract with the agent not the client unless you are direct obviously. Small point but pretty pertinent.

Exactly. And - long notice periods favour the agent* - let's not assume that what's offered up to you in a contract is what the client asked for (even if the agent swears it is). Because I've had exactly this, contract said 4 weeks, when queried I'm told "client terms are 2 weeks", so change it! then on renewal I get sight of the client-side contract which says 1 week.

So when you talk about obvious reasons don't forget the agent might be lying!

* because, IME, clients generally don't get it and let's face it many contractors don't either.

[SueEllen]

So would you want:
(a) No mention of notice period on your contract,
(b) Shortest possible notice period,
(c) Longest possible notice period?

Not a - b and c are fine especially as you can convince the client to let you go for personal reasons.

[Old Greg]

The only time I have seriously pushed back on contract terms was in relation to bizarre and disadvantageous payment terms. It prompted me to dig and I uncovered a credit risk so walked.

[northernladuk]

You are legally due pay for the days you work. It's in the contract. The issue you have is agents withholding the money due to you to cover their losses. They can't do that (even though they try). They should pay you what they owe and then sue you for breach of contract after. It's just that posession is 9/10ths the law in those situations.

[Criticular]

It's more about risk mitigation and the chips being heavily stacked in their favour.

Interesting asymmetry. They can dump you any time but you cannot. Just out of interest, are there any legal and practical ways of dumping a contract immediately the same way without loosing the payment for days you have delivered?

[northernladuk]

All the above but we mustn't forget the notice period is in the contract with the agent not the client unless you are direct obviously. Small point but pretty pertinent.

[LondonManc]

More often than not you don't get the choice. Many clients shy away from short notices or put an uneven one for fairly obvious reasons. They can bin you on the spot whatever the notice there is if they are smart so no benefit to them to have really short notices.

And good luck trying to push them to change or add cancellations fees

It's more about risk mitigation and the chips being heavily stacked in their favour.

The client has the pot of cash, while the agent and contractor want to get their hands on it.

The client's risk is that their deliverable (product, service, project) cannot be completed by the contractor (illness, inability to execute, jumping ship). They cannot mitigate for illness, the inability to execute *should* be mitigated by the whole onboarding process (interview + proof of who you are/what you've done) and the jumping ship risk is mitigated by the notice period. It's therefore in their interest to tie you down for as much of the contract duration as possible.

The agency will have standard engagement templates (upper contracts, Ts & Cs, etc) with the client to expose themselves to as little risk as possible (e.g. pay when paid clauses, no pay without signed timesheet, etc.)

No real notice is an occupational hazard of being a contractor. Don't think for a minute that they cannot make something up to get rid of you that day. That's not a risk though, it's an unfortunate fact of our way of working. Our main risk is that we put a day's pay at risk every day that passes between working it and being paid for it. I'd rather have a shorter payment term than a shorter notice period, if given the choice of one or the other.

[northernladuk]

Why would you want a one month notice in the contract for you to give to a client while the notice period on the other end is zero anyway? Wouldn't it be better to have a shortest possible notice, e.g. 1 day or 1 week?

And if the client wants longer you may be in a position to say ok, but then if you give me a notice it has to be same length or there is a cancellation fee of number of notice days x daily rate.

More often than not you don't get the choice. Many clients shy away from short notices or put an uneven one for fairly obvious reasons. They can bin you on the spot whatever the notice there is if they are smart so no benefit to them to have really short notices.

And good luck trying to push them to change or add cancellations fees