Reply to: State of the Market

[Ketto]

I also am 55 so am not interested in making friendships with people.

Very much at this stage too (ten years sooner too!), I have my required number of friends - don't need to make more at work.

[jamesbrown]

Nope the way the law is written end clients will want at least 1 conpany /agency between them and the company paying the worker.

if a worker is on agency payroll and the agency doesn’t pay the tax bill the end client is liable.

put an umbrella at the end of the chain and the agency is now an intermediary with responsibility to pay the tax owed. Hence that posters comment that the rules will likely encourage the use of umbrellas.

Got to ask why does this type of thing occur when I’m on holiday so miss comments like this one

No, the agency is liable in the first instance (where one exists). The whole point of JSL is to allow for the recovery of tax from any party in the supply chain, regardless of fault, albeit with an order of priority. Sensible clients are (or should be) policing their own supply chains at this point, but that will only increase.

There will obviously be (and we are witnessing) consolidation in the sector as agencies begin to police their own suppliers more carefully, i.e., umbrellas. There are also many cases without agencies in the supply chain. Finally, some end users will take this opportunity to put workers on their own payroll. The shortest supply chains are the least risky.

It is hard to say how this combination of things will pan out in the short term, meaning the next 1-5 years. In the long run, umbrellas were always a stupid "idea" (a logical response to stupid legislation) and they are incredibly sensitive to changes in legislation - as evidenced with the latest changes to JSL - so they remain very precarious. Need to see the big picture here.

[WTFH]

Working from home / going to the office is purely a personal thing. I have been WFH fully since Covid and I love it. I have 2 kids, 2 dogs and I love going to the gym at 06:00 every morning and walking the dogs before I do my work. This would not be possible if I was going in to the office. I also am 55 so am not interested in making friendships with people. As I am just counting down the days till I can retire. But I get for younger people who want to socialise and don't have kids, dogs etc they may want to go to the office.

I will take exemption to the comment that WFH has helped caused the downturn though. This is absolute nonsense.

I'm with you. I feel sorry for people who don't have a dog to walk.
WFH hasn't caused the downturn. I've been doing it to some degree for about 15 years. Back then each month was 1 week in Belgium, 1 week in Germany, and 2 weeks at home. The next contract after that was 3 weeks in Japan, 3 weeks at home. Then a UK based one that started with 1 day a fortnight on site, the rest at home. Since then it's been project kick offs and go lives are on site, everything else is at home, and the rate card is suitably weighted to encourage the clients not to want me on site too often.

[avonleigh]

Working from home / going to the office is purely a personal thing. I have been WFH fully since Covid and I love it. I have 2 kids, 2 dogs and I love going to the gym at 06:00 every morning and walking the dogs before I do my work. This would not be possible if I was going in to the office. I also am 55 so am not interested in making friendships with people. As I am just counting down the days till I can retire. But I get for younger people who want to socialise and don't have kids, dogs etc they may want to go to the office.

I will take exemption to the comment that WFH has helped caused the downturn though. This is absolute nonsense.

[eek]

Which umbrella company is that? No harm in being transparent...

The short-term is rather unpredictable, but umbrella companies are doomed in the long run because they are so highly contingent on a bizarre nexus of tax and employment law.

Nope the way the law is written end clients will want at least 1 conpany /agency between them and the company paying the worker.

if a worker is on agency payroll and the agency doesn’t pay the tax bill the end client is liable.

put an umbrella at the end of the chain and the agency is now an intermediary with responsibility to pay the tax owed. Hence that posters comment that the rules will likely encourage the use of umbrellas.

Got to ask why does this type of thing occur when I’m on holiday so miss comments like this one

[herman_g]

Not fat or lazy myself. I have been addicted to my running on my professional quality treadmill fr years and get in at least 40 minutes per day. It's located in the same room as my office setup. When I was in London, I used to attend the gym every mornng before work. Running in the evenings when I worked in central London never worked as the tube journey home was packed like sardines and I arrived home exhausted. Now, if I want to run in the evening, I just run. If I was an outdoor runner - I never got into that, I am less than a km from the mediterannean sea where I normally just walk down the beach with my lady.

I just don't see any advantage in being in the office and it's great my clients see it that way. So much time is wasted with chit chat and office politics. There is just no office politics with no office. We get the work done and work quite well as a team.

I've met many Olympic athletes at charity events when I was a systems analyst at McDonald's Canadian head office. A female Olympic Silver skier once brushed snow off my leg when I wiped out at a charity slalom event with horrible icy conditions. The event was named after her gold medal winning brother who I spoke with at the dinner later as I was a single guy and I was hoping to make the moves on his sister who never attended the dinner. It was flattering as a 26 year old kid but never even told the story before other than to my mates the next day. It was never a significant event. Find yourself into such events and you will meet lots of olympic athletes. That's what they do after winning medals.

That event was deep in my memory bank until just now - I meet far more famous people in the summer time at my mate's club here in Greece. Not worth even naming them but I'm talking A-list actors and rock stars that come up every time when you see lists of top guitarists or of all time top rock bands in terms of sales. Everybody comes here in the summer time flying in on private planes and staying on their yachts. Some are so famous they land over in Turkey to remain incognito and just cross over from there using their yacht.

Working from home makes this all possible.

Not bragging - just putting it out in response to your story.

[SchumiStars]

This is my favourite part. Such an advantage to being in the office and, my god, what a productivity gain. Looking forward to Schumi's memoirs to see what other personal and professional highlights will be in there.

Not everything has to yeild a financial benefit. I understand this seems to be a big driver for people on here.

At the time I was running marathons, trying to get faster. Finding inspirational people to learn and build from is not as easy as it sounds.

People in offices have called me inspirational and have gravitated towards my social skills and arranging evenings out for the team.

But yeah, why don't you tell us about the cost benefit of the last spreadsheet you wrote for accounts?

The point being, not all benefits are financial. What about the health, motivational and inspirational drivers?

I am not fat nor lazy.

See attached screenshots. I used to run from Charing Cross to Canary Wharf and back. Every, single, day.

As I have previously said, I would love that to return to an office.

[herman_g]

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

This is my favourite part. Such an advantage to being in the office and, my god, what a productivity gain. Looking forward to Schumi's memoirs to see what other personal and professional highlights will be in there.

[Dorkeaux]

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

With respect Schumster, the CilentCos don't really care if you disagree, or if you have a pleasant place to run.
It's them driving the change in working practices for the most part.

I think it's all to the good.
I have some very longstanding and productive relationships with colleagues I've rarely even seen even on camera.

[herman_g]

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

Well seems you've got a whole lot of time for runningnow. And it's probably been so long since you worked in the office or did WFH that you wouldn't remember either one. Probably time to re-train as a gym teacher.

[Ketto]

Everyone is different. I have periods where i go in all the time, others where i don’t go in for weeks. There are good and bad points to both. I can’t imagine what raising young kids needing school and nursery runs must have been like pre-covid for two people both commuting into the city.

I was once instructed by my other half to go in, have a lavish lunch and then go for a few post work craft beers. This was after 11 weeks straight home working where i’m told i had started to go ever so slightly barmy. I had no idea!

[eek]

How can you live in London yet not be able to spell Marylebone and Farringdon.

equally Marylebone is a small station everyone else refers to that area as “West End” (which is what current clientco calls it) / Baker Street

[SchumiStars]

When they first started talking about going back to the office once a week, the other option was just to have a night out once every two weeks. It was explained the purpose was not to get people into the office but, rather, to gain something from people spending time together. It was decided Tuesdays in the office was fine but the manager stressed he want people to sit on teams all day. He explained the bank was very happy with the productivity increase since WFH began.

The first time I went into the office, I found they had some strange standard for connecting monitors and I was unable to use anything but my small laptop monitor. It was noisy and little got done. At home, I have the big screen and two 32 inch monitors and it's quiet. I am able to put in a really great day's work and still manage do some trading. When I my manager asked me how the day went late in the afternoon, I told him I got nothing done. His response was "that's ok - it's not why you're here.

When I have teams meetings with one of the guys who likes to go Tuesdays because his son's school is close to the office, nothing gets accomplished. It's noisy with other guys around him and he is almost whispering.

It's clear the working world has moved beyond working in the office and it's only a good thing.

Companies are happy and so are the staff - us independant contracters are happy as well (put that in for my HMRC loving Oliverson since I clearly can't be part of a scrum team with other members and I can't have a boss or colleagues).

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

[herman_g]

I find the contract work I've taken since well before COVID follows the pattern Herman describes.

My clients say two days a week during the contract negotiations, but the actually don't want me in the office once the contract starts.

The nature of the work has adapted. Even if you do go into the central London office everyone around you is wearing headphones on Teams calls or head down working at the screen.

When they first started talking about going back to the office once a week, the other option was just to have a night out once every two weeks. It was explained the purpose was not to get people into the office but, rather, to gain something from people spending time together. It was decided Tuesdays in the office was fine but the manager stressed he want people to sit on teams all day. He explained the bank was very happy with the productivity increase since WFH began.

The first time I went into the office, I found they had some strange standard for connecting monitors and I was unable to use anything but my small laptop monitor. It was noisy and little got done. At home, I have the big screen and two 32 inch monitors and it's quiet. I am able to put in a really great day's work and still manage do some trading. When I my manager asked me how the day went late in the afternoon, I told him I got nothing done. His response was "that's ok - it's not why you're here.

When I have teams meetings with one of the guys who likes to go Tuesdays because his son's school is close to the office, nothing gets accomplished. It's noisy with other guys around him and he is almost whispering.

It's clear the working world has moved beyond working in the office and it's only a good thing.

Companies are happy and so are the staff - us independant contracters are happy as well (put that in for my HMRC loving Oliverson since I clearly can't be part of a scrum team with other members and I can't have a boss or colleagues).

[Dorkeaux]

I find the contract work I've taken since well before COVID follows the pattern Herman describes.

My clients say two days a week during the contract negotiations, but the actually don't want me in the office once the contract starts.

The nature of the work has adapted. Even if you do go into the central London office everyone around you is wearing headphones on Teams calls or head down working at the screen.

That's funny. I just got renewed for another year. Few of my colleagues ever go to the office the one "onsite day" at the Dutch big four bank I contract to. I've been there exactly twice so far in 4 1/2 years. A third attempt to go into the office turned into just a weed run and I ended up working from the Dutch hotel as there was nobody on the team there that day.

Two of my team members just got promoted this week and new staff will come onboard to replace them. From what I hear my team is not an exception.

I just read the Dutch government plans to expand immigration to make up for a massive labour shortage.

You really don't think the issue might be this little mistake they call brexit? The government seems to think so but can't seem to change enoigh of the public's mind. Instead, they are left with tacing the citizens to death.