Reply to: How long can the pimp play this game with my rate?

[StillBreathing]

Pimp actually txt'ed me on Friday to say the rate should be fine. Yesterday he called to say client won't raise to it (which shouldn't make a difference as it's a consultancy arrangement). Then to say client is trying to raise to it but it would help if he knew my bottom line.

All sounds like agency tactics to me.

Let us know where you end up with your rate - I've been in similar position where after a few days of negotiations I dropped the agreed rate to 5% less but then managed to find another gig (as the client was taking long to move things forward) and used it a leverage to increase the rate to 10% more of what was initially agreed.

[jbond007]

...I've seen contractors who are bluffing their way through and learning on the job - seems to be an M.O. for many in IB unfortunately....

Not just IB, happens quite often in Telco & Media as well

[LondonManc]

If only more clients did this, at the end of the day transparency is king, I know IB clients enforce this a lot more.

As part of that, there's also very little recognition of seniority/experience - they want a BI Developer at x hundred a day. It's just thrown out there rather than the client actually asking the agent what they can expect for different budgets (as you would if you were recruiting a perm, where you'd advertise for junior, senior or normal level analyst for example).

I've seen contractors who are bluffing their way through and learning on the job - seems to be an M.O. for many in IB unfortunately, although the round of culls going on may sort the wheat from the chaff and get London-based IB hiring managers thinking about who they actually take on in future.

[SlipTheJab]

The best model for contractors is for the agency to be on a fixed percentage.
It is then in the agent's interest to get the best contractor available because in theory they can charge more for them.

It also means that the client can see what they get for £300/day v £500/day v £700/day and take their pick over ability to deliver v price.

If only more clients did this, at the end of the day transparency is king, I know IB clients enforce this a lot more.

[LondonManc]

I started at a place with another contractor where the client told me when hiring the other contractor the agent told them that they were away and were stalling on starting when in fact the contractor was sat there not away with the agent telling them there were problems with the client and they wanted them to take less money.

This all came out in general conversation when contractor started and client not too happy but nothing they could do as it was sometime after they had started.

I really hate agencies and they seem to mess about clients as much as contractors.

The best model for contractors is for the agency to be on a fixed percentage.
It is then in the agent's interest to get the best contractor available because in theory they can charge more for them.

It also means that the client can see what they get for £300/day v £500/day v £700/day and take their pick over ability to deliver v price.

[FatLazyContractor]

I started at a place with another contractor where the client told me when hiring the other contractor the agent told them that they were away and were stalling on starting when in fact the contractor was sat there not away with the agent telling them there were problems with the client and they wanted them to take less money.

[curtis]

I started at a place with another contractor where the client told me when hiring the other contractor the agent told them that they were away and were stalling on starting when in fact the contractor was sat there not away with the agent telling them there were problems with the client and they wanted them to take less money.

This all came out in general conversation when contractor started and client not too happy but nothing they could do as it was sometime after they had started.

I really hate agencies and they seem to mess about clients as much as contractors.

[LondonManc]

No, I'm not. He can budge as far as he wants if he gets a counter-offer worth considering.

Precisely.

I said he should say he's willing to consider counter-offers.

But if he comes back and says, "Oh, I can go 25 quid a day less," and the agent says, "How about 50 quid", he can't really accept it without creating a really bad precedent with at least the agent and maybe the client. If he's willing to go 50 a day less, he shouldn't say 25. But he also shouldn't say 50 a day less, because that will be all he will get.

Why cut your own throat? He's made an offer. If they don't like it but they want his services, ask them for a counter-offer. If he's happy with it, he can accept it. If it is disrespectful, he can walk away. If the agent is just having it on, well, the agent is risking losing his cut, so he should tell him he's looking elsewhere.

Always negotiate from the strongest position you can, not the weakest.

"Let me have a think about it on my way back from this morning's interview."

That'll shut the little weasel up.

[WordIsBond]

You're all telling him not to budge on rate from what he initially quoted.

No, I'm not. He can budge as far as he wants if he gets a counter-offer worth considering.

Although if the agent says "how low can you go" why aren't you just asking "what will the client pay?"

Precisely.

I said he should say he's willing to consider counter-offers.

But if he comes back and says, "Oh, I can go 25 quid a day less," and the agent says, "How about 50 quid", he can't really accept it without creating a really bad precedent with at least the agent and maybe the client. If he's willing to go 50 a day less, he shouldn't say 25. But he also shouldn't say 50 a day less, because that will be all he will get.

Why cut your own throat? He's made an offer. If they don't like it but they want his services, ask them for a counter-offer. If he's happy with it, he can accept it. If it is disrespectful, he can walk away. If the agent is just having it on, well, the agent is risking losing his cut, so he should tell him he's looking elsewhere.

Always negotiate from the strongest position you can, not the weakest.

[d000hg]

You're all telling him not to budge on rate from what he initially quoted. If the agent is playing hard here then it's entirely reasonable to make a small concession say £25/day and THEN stick to your guns. You still get a great rate (based on the OP's statements).

Although if the agent says "how low can you go" why aren't you just asking "what will the client pay?"

[WordIsBond]

Everything is negotiable.

You're quoting me, I've said that a million times.

But cutting your rate without any indication of what the client is looking for or willing to pay, just because you've been asked to, is not negotiation, it is surrender. And giving away what your floor is while the other guy is holding all his cards to his chest and showing nothing is about the stupidest way to negotiate.

Negotiation involves offer, counter-offer, and either making the case why one offer is right and the other wrong, or finding a middle ground. That is not what is being described here. OP is being asked to put himself in the weakest possible position before the negotiation even starts.

[d000hg]

This.

"I've told you my rate, you haven't made an offer at that rate, and I'm looking at other roles. If you make a counter-offer, I might be willing to consider it, but there are other contracts out there, so it would have to be the right role for me to go lower."

Why undercut yourself? Why would you ever do that? If you are willing to enter into negotiations on rate, let them make an offer and negotiate against them. Don't negotiate against yourself.

Everything is negotiable. Undercutting and being prepared to move from the original rate you quoted are very different. You might sensibly take this into account when giving your rate initially...

[psychocandy]

Certainly was the case in my example - Agent was suspended from PSL for 3 months.....and, I am still with Client, happily invoicing 2yrs later

Fair play to you in your case winning this one but I wonder how many times the agency wins? I reckon 99% of the time.

Remember the agent is the one in contact with the client. They can spin any old bollax to the client knowing damn well they're unlikely to get found out.

I've seen it happen. Agent knows they can play one off against the other. Agent tells contractor its £50 less, pockets it. Only way contractor ever finds out is if it comes up in conversation with client which is unlikely. Agent also knows that big company, its all going to lost somewhere.

I worked at client where client mgr had been told agency were on a fixed margin. Of course, they lied. Were taking a huge cut. When it all came out agency just blagged it and lied again.

[kevpuk]

WGAS - Who gives a sh**!?

Hehe, thanks - have to brush up on my urban dictionary

[ShandyDrinker]

I believe so - there was much humbleness and apologising and 'oh, she (Agent) is new and got mixed up'....which no-one believed.....

WGAS?

?

WGAS - Who gives a sh**!?