Reply to: Finding out the rate being charged?

[SlipTheJab]

First two then at the moment..... Although I'd swap rate rise for WFH one/two days per week.

And theres your bargaining chip that may work out best for all, I've done exactly that before, new contract offered and rather than ask for more $$$ I've punted in a request for a regular WFH day (worth more then a few extra quid in my book), again you need to understand the situation you're in but this may be a good one to go for.

[northernladuk]

More responsibility I would disagree. A year ago I was taken on to provide general support to x, y, z. Things have changed a little and client wants me to, in effect, now take over tech lead/consultancy for a project based on x. A dedicated x consultant would command a fair bit more than I get (or intend to ask for).

So you've changed role which comes with a different rate card which I said. It depends on what the extra responsibility is, arguable within the scope of your current role or a new role altogether.

Also, one of my bugbears is that the rate I start is not the rate forever. Market changes etc so rates go up. I constantly get agents contacting me with roles paying 20% more than I get now. But like you said, I like the client but it can only go so far.

Agreed but there is some common sense here. How happy would you be if all the contracts you are in at home go up every three months or a year for no apparent reason?

After all this time you are using the agent tells me the gig is 20% line??? Really

As for the increased costs, we are all going to be paying the extra dividend tax come April. I don't think there's a doubt its going to cost us all money. Yes most of us dodged the bullet with the expenses thing but its going to cost more in tax. Yes I know client doesn't care about the tax we pay but its a fact that its going to affect things. None of us should be sitting there and thinking poor old client, they don't want to pay extra, I'll just swallow this one.

It's £2.5k. It's hardly breaking the bank. Sometimes business have to swallow something and then re-correct later. Like a tenner a day rate increase to cover. As TF says, go for it, stick it to them. I for one won't be rocking up to my client complaining my costs have gone up a tenner a day and I want it correcting. You are gonna look like a right idiot.
I'm happy to bide my time on a good gig and 'if' the rates go up because of the divi tax then I'll adjust the rate on the next gig to suit.

Not sure about being the first one to raise rates. Couple of contractors here but no idea what they get/what they're deal is. But not bothered about that.

BTW - don't care if agent thinks I'm a greedy troublemaker..... :-)

And that's why it's pretty pointless giving you any sensible advice.

Just keep reading and liking the posts you want to hear. Am sure you'll be fine.

[SlipTheJab]

I do think you've got to be careful here. If you go in mindlessly, demand a rate that's unreasonable for the situation and then immediately back down at the slightest resistance you've made yourself a target. 3 of you, they only need 2 and one is making waves.......

It has to be a measured and sensible approach or it will reflect badly on you.

Agreed.

[psychocandy]

Until the rate no longer justifies the work that you are doing, or is significantly less than you could earn elsewhere, or you're sick of the place.

I've not asked for an increase on this contract because I enjoy the people, the work, the WFH, the rate, and the environment.

First two then at the moment..... Although I'd swap rate rise for WFH one/two days per week.

[northernladuk]

You don't, you ask for an increase if you feel justified and walk if the client tells you to shove it, it's analogous to when being permie the only way to get a decent improvement on salary (usually) is if you move jobs.
The worse thing you can do is ask for an increase, the client says no and you still stay...

I do think you've got to be careful here. If you go in mindlessly, demand a rate that's unreasonable for the situation and then immediately back down at the slightest resistance you've made yourself a target. 3 of you, they only need 2 and one is making waves.......

It has to be a measured and sensible approach or it will reflect badly on you.

[SlipTheJab]

As long as I am happy and comfortable the agent has been squeezed or until I change roles that comes with a different rate.

Inching rates up because you've been there longer and deserve it is permie thinking. You get paid to do a role. If you do that role for 3 years you get paid that rate for three years (squeezing agents aside).

Disagree, you agree to a rate for the duration of the contract, a new contract means an opportunity (and I stress its just that) for renegotiation, I've done it myself, 2 increases during a 2.5 year contract, one was because the location moved to London and the other to keep step with the market.

[psychocandy]

You don't, you ask for an increase if you feel justified and walk if the client tells you to shove it, it's analogous to when being permie the only way to get a decent improvement on salary (usually) is if you move jobs.
The worse thing you can do is ask for an increase, the client says no and you still stay...

Aye I can see that

[psychocandy]

8% is pretty low. The only way it's going to be any lower is if you are at some massive client and the agent is the incumbent onsite presence. Could be down to about 5% if that was the case. Not a lot less. We need to start talking cash here now though not percentages to put a reality spin on it. Lets assume you are on 400 so they are taking 32 quid a day.

More responsibility doesn't always warrant a rate change I am afraid. A completely different grade might, or a different role but not a bit more responsibility. That's permie thinking. You are doing a role at a rate. Sometimes you get paid for doing sod all, sometimes they want their pound of flesh. Dividend tax is your problem not your clients but you can offer the excuse your operating costs have gone up. What I would NOT be doing however is trying to be the first person to see if they can raise their rates because of it. I honestly don't think the client or agent will know anything about this let alone bat an eyelid. I'd be happy to wait to see how this pans out before using it as an excuse for a raise. It's a valid increase though so if you want to offer it up then fair enough.

The client isn't going to stump up. I'd forget this one. If you are happy on the rate you are on then just concentrate on squeezing the agent.
That said what are you going to squeeze the agent for? 1, maybe 2%... 4 or 8 quid more? Of which how much hits your pocket? And you are going to have a hard time trying to get an agent to accept the absolutely lowest possible rate he can do. IMO for that amount of money you are going to label yourself a greedy trouble maker.

8% is a very fair rate and I see nothing in here that is worth rocking the boat for less than a tenner a day.... You've finally got a client you don't hate, an agent you are not moaning about constantly. Why mess that up now?

Yes the agent is the incumbent at the client which I guess is why the margin is so low anyway. I will agree there's not a lot to squeeze the agent out of here.

More responsibility I would disagree. A year ago I was taken on to provide general support to x, y, z. Things have changed a little and client wants me to, in effect, now take over tech lead/consultancy for a project based on x. A dedicated x consultant would command a fair bit more than I get (or intend to ask for).

Also, one of my bugbears is that the rate I start is not the rate forever. Market changes etc so rates go up. I constantly get agents contacting me with roles paying 20% more than I get now. But like you said, I like the client but it can only go so far.

As for the increased costs, we are all going to be paying the extra dividend tax come April. I don't think there's a doubt its going to cost us all money. Yes most of us dodged the bullet with the expenses thing but its going to cost more in tax. Yes I know client doesn't care about the tax we pay but its a fact that its going to affect things. None of us should be sitting there and thinking poor old client, they don't want to pay extra, I'll just swallow this one.

Not sure about being the first one to raise rates. Couple of contractors here but no idea what they get/what they're deal is. But not bothered about that.

BTW - don't care if agent thinks I'm a greedy troublemaker..... :-)

[TheFaQQer]

True enough. BUT how long do you remain on the same rate you started on?

Until the rate no longer justifies the work that you are doing, or is significantly less than you could earn elsewhere, or you're sick of the place.

I've not asked for an increase on this contract because I enjoy the people, the work, the WFH, the rate, and the environment.

[SlipTheJab]

True enough. BUT how long do you remain on the same rate you started on?

You don't, you ask for an increase if you feel justified and walk if the client tells you to shove it, it's analogous to when being permie the only way to get a decent improvement on salary (usually) is if you move jobs.
The worse thing you can do is ask for an increase, the client says no and you still stay...

[northernladuk]

True enough. BUT how long do you remain on the same rate you started on?

As long as I am happy and comfortable the agent has been squeezed or until I change roles that comes with a different rate.

Inching rates up because you've been there longer and deserve it is permie thinking. You get paid to do a role. If you do that role for 3 years you get paid that rate for three years (squeezing agents aside).

[NotAllThere]

True enough. BUT how long do you remain on the same rate you started on?

Ten years and counting. It's not as though there's been a massive amount of inflation in that time. When the credit crunch bit and there was pressure to reduce rates, my argument was that I hadn't put my rates up during the good times, so I didn't see why I should reduce them now.

My rate is still somewhat higher than the top end of the client's usual rate scale.

In all the time I've been contracting (which is since 1995) I've asked for a rate increase twice. Both times had justification more than "I've been here a long time and want more".

[psychocandy]

Agree at 8% its going to be tougher to squeeze anything out of the pimp, you could argue that all they are doing now is factoring invoices and 4-5% would be fair compensation for that (what's the betting if you ask the agent they will tell you that they're getting 4-5% anyway!) If you want a real increase it will need to come from the client, so the old chestnut of 'be prepared to walk if you don't get any joy' applies. For me like NLUK says its not worth the hassle/risk if you like the place and like the work.

True enough. BUT how long do you remain on the same rate you started on?

[SlipTheJab]

Agree at 8% its going to be tougher to squeeze anything out of the pimp, you could argue that all they are doing now is factoring invoices and 4-5% would be fair compensation for that (what's the betting if you ask the agent they will tell you that they're getting 4-5% anyway!) If you want a real increase it will need to come from the client, so the old chestnut of 'be prepared to walk if you don't get any joy' applies. For me like NLUK says its not worth the hassle/risk if you like the place and like the work.

[SlipTheJab]

Are you crazy? The only time you reveal that you know the margin is when it's high. If it's low, and you tell the agent that you know it's low, you've weakened your own position.

Once again - it most definitely is your business to know the margin, if you can. If you are getting £500 a day and the client is paying £1000 a day, the client will expect more from you than from the contractor who's on £750 for whom they're paying £850. Or if they need to cut costs and ditch one contractor - guess what, all things being equal, it'll be you.

+1, I've never understood the argument of 'It's none of your business that the agency is getting 800 a day and you 400, why should you care as you agreed a rate you'd be happy with.', this is the exact reason why you should care and why it does matter.