Reply to: Former manager won't provide a reference

[northernladuk]

About time I got some praise on here. Apologies for being nasty though. It was intention to lure you into general then be nasty. Unlike NLUK. Who continually deprives general of fresh meat.

Though, if you want to toughen yourself up, go post in general for a while. Before like you will be a cynic with the morals of an agent.

If the fresh meat you so yearn are not posting because they asked their accountants or searched the threads first then it can't be too bad a thing surely?

[BrilloPad]

Sorry, I shot the messenger! Forgive me, I clearly can't read.

It was Brillopad that queried whether I should be a contractor, not you.

And it was a bit of an overreaction anyway as they followed up with some good points.

But do you know how many times that comes up on every single thread!? Got a problem? Well, you shouldn't be a contractor then!

I've seen it being wheeled out to everyone, so I was just waiting for my turn! A bit too eagerly, it seems.

About time I got some praise on here. Apologies for being nasty though. It was intention to lure you into general then be nasty. Unlike NLUK. Who continually deprives general of fresh meat.

Though, if you want to toughen yourself up, go post in general for a while. Before like you will be a cynic with the morals of an agent.

[LondonManc]

Sorry, I shot the messenger! Forgive me, I clearly can't read.

It was Brillopad that queried whether I should be a contractor, not you.

And it was a bit of an overreaction anyway as they followed up with some good points.

But do you know how many times that comes up on every single thread!? Got a problem? Well, you shouldn't be a contractor then!

I've seen it being wheeled out to everyone, so I was just waiting for my turn! A bit too eagerly, it seems.

Apology accepted.

[MrMarkyMark]

Other way round though :-)

Even if you shat on the MDs desk and nobbed his secretary at your last place they aren't going to give you a bad reference.

What were you the MD or the secretary

[CalamityJane]

I respect your desire to be 'honest'. It takes all sorts, I suppose.

However for your benefit and those of other young people on this channel, being in business and being 'honest' is something you should be very careful about.

Some people are deeply religious and it's a free country but most people would counsel their children to steer away from that kind of position.

I have been connected with selling in the past (and as contractors we are salesmen as much as deliverers). Businesses small or huge do not succeed by thinking they are still at university doing their theses. You have to manipulate the truth to fit the circumstances you are in.

A long time ago I was assigned to a very big bank where the consultancy I was working for had promised a reference site that didn't really exist. The bank kept asking for a visit to this fictitious client but the consultancy kept wiggling out of it. Then we got a lead to another very big bank and the first big bank agreed to be a reference site for the second big bank even thought they still hadn't got their reference visit!

You see, everybody was happy so 'honesty' was not really helpful to anyone in this situation.

I appreciate your candour. Few would so...honestly...state the need for dishonesty.

But that story.....it could all have ended so badly, legally speaking.

I know, I know - high risk, high reward, but still...

[CalamityJane]

Wow, I only told you what the acronym stood for.

Sorry, I shot the messenger! Forgive me, I clearly can't read.

It was Brillopad that queried whether I should be a contractor, not you.

And it was a bit of an overreaction anyway as they followed up with some good points.

But do you know how many times that comes up on every single thread!? Got a problem? Well, you shouldn't be a contractor then!

I've seen it being wheeled out to everyone, so I was just waiting for my turn! A bit too eagerly, it seems.

[Cirrus]

I am not dishonest though. I wouldn't want to get this illegally. And - I shouldn't have to.

Thanks though, it does explain to me how contractors get round this. I just...can't do it.

I respect your desire to be 'honest'. It takes all sorts, I suppose.

However for your benefit and those of other young people on this channel, being in business and being 'honest' is something you should be very careful about.

Some people are deeply religious and it's a free country but most people would counsel their children to steer away from that kind of position.

I have been connected with selling in the past (and as contractors we are salesmen as much as deliverers). Businesses small or huge do not succeed by thinking they are still at university doing their theses. You have to manipulate the truth to fit the circumstances you are in.

A long time ago I was assigned to a very big bank where the consultancy I was working for had promised a reference site that didn't really exist. The bank kept asking for a visit to this fictitious client but the consultancy kept wiggling out of it. Then we got a lead to another very big bank and the first big bank agreed to be a reference site for the second big bank even thought they still hadn't got their reference visit!

You see, everybody was happy so 'honesty' was not really helpful to anyone in this situation.

[psychocandy]

He has a few of these, hence the concern

Not quite but I do know of one guy who ran up £1000s on the company phones on horse betting tips lines, stole from other employees, then got found out. Then punched a senior manager in a meeting to discuss all of this.

(Apparently, this guy had a big gambling/drug problem too, lived with his gran, and nicked and sold her belongings too so it wasnt just work).

In the end, he left sort of mutual consent to go to college or something. Ended up paying back a token of what he'd spent on the phone (Although he did pay back what he'd nicked from others).

I know for a fact management were told if he asks for a reference, then give him one. Don't go overboard but make it ok but in no way shape or form put anything in there that is negative.

[LondonManc]

I've been lurking on these threads long enough to have heard the gist of this one many, many times before! (I didn't know the abbreviation though!)

Yes, it's dished out to anyone who queries the advice given.

Am I cut out for contracting? Well, I get great contracts at big brands at great rates, always get my contract extended, always get asked back for new contracts (I always say no) and enjoy doing it far more than being a permie.

And I do all of this in big, bad, expensive, competitive London -

- but your comment has got me questioning everything!

(Just popping off to apply for a permie job in the public sector - much more my speed!)

Sorry, I'm a tad oversensitive today.. :-)

Wow, I only told you what the acronym stood for.

[psychocandy]

Sounds like the voice of experience

Other way round though :-)

[CalamityJane]

Here's a list of most agents' priorities

1. Agent
2. Agent
3. Agent
4. Agency
5. Client
6. Contractor.

That said, they can't keep 1 - 5 happy without a 6. If the only thing stopping you being their 6 is something they can fix, then tell them and let them sort it out.

Good advice, thank you.

Just curious - have any of you ever considered becoming agents rather than contractors? It seems to be a pretty easy life?

I suppose you're keen to hold on to your souls.

When I've turned down contracts offered by former clients, I always get asked if there's anyone I'd recommend. I suppose some contractors go agent side and make a fortune?

[CalamityJane]

Are You Cut Out To Be A Contractor

I've been lurking on these threads long enough to have heard the gist of this one many, many times before! (I didn't know the abbreviation though!)

Yes, it's dished out to anyone who queries the advice given.

Am I cut out for contracting? Well, I get great contracts at big brands at great rates, always get my contract extended, always get asked back for new contracts (I always say no) and enjoy doing it far more than being a permie.

And I do all of this in big, bad, expensive, competitive London -

- but your comment has got me questioning everything!

(Just popping off to apply for a permie job in the public sector - much more my speed!)

Sorry, I'm a tad oversensitive today.. :-)

[JRCT]

What? Confide in an agent? It sounds weird, but I never even thought about it.

I sort of assume that they're there to look after the client, not the consultant.

Here's a list of most agents' priorities

1. Agent
2. Agent
3. Agent
4. Agency
5. Client
6. Contractor.

That said, they can't keep 1 - 5 happy without a 6. If the only thing stopping you being their 6 is something they can fix, then tell them and let them sort it out.

[LondonManc]

I'm definitely continuing to look - I never stopped. I don't with conditional offers. Maybe I can actually find a company that is desperate for me to work there, and mention it. I've done that before with success.

It would be hard to just walk away from this without a fight.

It's a big brand and the people I'd be working with seem great- very likeable and very professional. The programme is also pretty straightforward - I've led on very similar programmes that were far bigger in scope and found it rewarding, yet the rate is really good.

In short - it's the perfect gig.

I've got to ask....what is AYCOTBAC?

Are You Cut Out To Be A Contractor

[CalamityJane]

They look after themselves!

That comment, combined with your refusal to lie, means I have to ask :-

AYCOTBAC?

You might want to find out how many others the agency are representing. And if any others have been offered the gig. And bear in mind that if you use the wrong words they will beat you down on your rate to increase their margin.

And carry on looking/interviewing elsewhere. Or you could invent another gig which are desperate for you without checking references?

I'm definitely continuing to look - I never stopped. I don't with conditional offers. Maybe I can actually find a company that is desperate for me to work there, and mention it. I've done that before with success.

It would be hard to just walk away from this without a fight.

It's a big brand and the people I'd be working with seem great- very likeable and very professional. The programme is also pretty straightforward - I've led on very similar programmes that were far bigger in scope and found it rewarding, yet the rate is really good.

In short - it's the perfect gig.

I've got to ask....what is AYCOTBAC?