Reply to: Professional Career Change while contracting

[Glencky]

The only way to do this is with luck, and by worming your way into an organisation. Therefore I suspect you'll be quicker to get what you need by going permie for a while.

I'm a contract PM, currently working alongside a contract PMO. She is really, really good, and definitely PM material. She wants to go that way too. I've been doing a bit of coaching (hey, once a manager, always a manager) and I think she's about to extend on her current rate (good for a PMO, crap for a PM) because she's going to get the opportunity to try some PMing. She is very lucky (although she's earned some of her own luck by being good) as she wouldn't get the chance to do this mostly. I'm actually leaving myself shortly (will probably be back at some point) but in this case it helps that the organisation is very people-focussed- it's a smaller place than is typical working in FS. So yes, we get treated like glorified permies (which I don't care about, because I choose to operate inside IR35 anyway and it gets me some opportunities I wouldn't get otherwise) but that's part of the reason she's getting the opportunity she is. She's a contractor, on a contract rate, but essentially being given 'development opportunities'. Part of it too is that it's a risk for them every time they get somebody new in, because it's definitely true that the right attitude etc goes a long way and you never really know if somebody will be a good fit until they're there. So to some extent, worth working with what you've got.

I'm amused by some of NLUK's comments about the CVs he's been looking at - yeah, I feel your pain! I've seen a few things on here, and other places, about discarding CVs with typos. Ha! if I'd done that when I was a recruiting manager I'd have interviewed almost nobody. Yes, as has been said, many of the truly good and experienced people have built up the kind of network, whilst they were accruing that experience, that means they area indeed rarely on the bench or actively applying. Therefore what you're left with as a recruiting manager is 'the best of the rest' - and indeed asking your favoured contractors to stake their reputation by recommending other contractors.

And there's a quite separate rant about the ability of agencies to actually usefully filter CVs... but then I guess we don't see the ones they found to start with!

[SueEllen]

Not necessarily. Getting the wrong people in will cause more problems than having no one in in the short term. In some cases maybe but as a blanket statement then no.

There are also a number of threads about the market being quiet and plenty of people on the bench you are incorrect in your statement the demand is there for everyone to get a gig regardless of levels of skills...

Flashing two unqualified statements with no further context doesn't help anyone really.

The market is is not quiet in all skills.

[LondonManc]

It's very simple. If the interviewer isn't good, you'll get the best salesperson rather than the best person for the job.

[northernladuk]

short supply means the bar needs to be lowered

Not necessarily. Getting the wrong people in will cause more problems than having no one in in the short term. In some cases maybe but as a blanket statement then no.

There are also a number of threads about the market being quiet and plenty of people on the bench you are incorrect in your statement the demand is there for everyone to get a gig regardless of levels of skills...

Flashing two unqualified statements with no further context doesn't help anyone really.

[pr1]

But who is demanding tulip people?

short supply means the bar needs to be lowered

[Snarf]

supply and demand is king

But who is demanding tulip people?

[Cirrus]

I started contracting as a developer. I was mainly working with one consultancy. As time went on I became a lead developer then an applications manager (responsible for a number of client systems). Come 1997 they pulled in a big Y2K programme and their chosen programme manager suddenly upped and left. They stuck me in to fill the gap and heh presto I was now worth £600 per day. Before they put me in I would never got such a role in a month of Sundays. After that one (successful) entry on my CV I slipped effortlessly into roles with the biggest players.

Just as well, as my developer skills tanked in the market at the start of the new millenium

[pr1]

I can't see anyone giving you a decent day rate without a proven track record.

supply and demand is king

[MrMarkyMark]

I can't see anyone giving you a decent day rate without a proven track record.

Not the case anymore I'm afraid.
I think its one of the factors that could kill contracting completely

[Snarf]

We have been interviewing at my clients for the last few months and I'm sick of getting CVs in with people that have had less than 4 years experience before they went contracting or people that have switched roles in their contracting career. They offer me absolutely nothing above and beyond a mediocre permie. Falling in to a new skill set whilst being a contractor means you can follow the process that your client uses but really fail when it comes to have a good grasp in the profession that you are representing. A good example is a BA that's managed to switch in to PM. Just because they have spent a year in PM contracts does not make them a skilled PM. I've seen 9 CVs like this and it's apparent the person is not skilled in the profession they purport to represent. It's been a real eye opener for me and I see now why some people spend so much time on the bench.

Switching skills as you wish to with no chance how to learn to do it properly first means you are going to struggle for gigs for years to come. Switching with no skills at all is most certainly not going to end well and you will be spending a long time in the bench in between gigs for a long time.

Invest some time in a permanent role to gain saleable skills and then come back contracting. Treat it as short term investment to a career that will last much longer.

I agree with this, I had been thinking about contracting since 2009 but with only 5 years professional experience didn't feel that I had enough to offer, I only took the plunge last year with 10 solid years experience (and a few years worth of education/hobby/freelance experience) I can't see anyone giving you a decent day rate without a proven track record.

[northernladuk]

This. There's junior, normal and senior analysts, etc. in permie world but contractors are all assumed to have the skills/experience to be senior when many clearly are not.

Exactly!

[MrMarkyMark]

I'd say experience can actually be overrated - ability and attitude count for just as much.

I agree with this in principle, that experience can be overated, which is why I suggested skills were of equal importance. If a person has experience and skills that is what I'm after.

Currently dealing with a BA who suggested you didn't need columns defined in a report BRD , so know exactly what everyone is talking about.

The problem is finding this person out of the dross that comes with it.

Yes, a total nightmare. I have given a lot of very short interviews, lets put it that way

[northernladuk]

One hopes you're giving this feedback to both agencies and HR. Agencies need telling to stop sending the LCD where they can charge clients the maximum and give the contractor the lowest fee.

HR need to be told that agents can and will rip off a company if they dont keep a check on them.

I am indeed. I've looked at the spec to try and beef that up, I've suggested the ones that we've had that 'might' have been ok aren't worth the rate so offer them less rather than accepting them whilst still paying over market rates and I've made sure the agent is on a fixed rate and won't be creaming the client. So if you've been for an SDM role recently and the agent has come back with a lower rate than advertised it could be it's not actually the agent that's the problem as we usually assume

[northernladuk]

A proper well paid contract is not going to be the place you go to learn the ropes of a new career! You're going to have to go permie of fixed term contract for that.

In contrast to what some people are saying on this thread though I don't think you necessarily need many years of experience in a set role to be really good at it. I've met many, many, many utterly incompetent project managers, BAs, consultants, managers, developers with years and years of experience. Sometimes I've been utterly shocked at the low project management skills of project managers. I have never been a PM but I have often had to step in and do parts of their job properly for them.

For a lot of roles the skillsets transfer across to other positions very easily. Logical thinking, planning, handling people, prioritising.

I'd say experience can actually be overrated - ability and attitude count for just as much.

This might be controversial but I'd say give me a switched on person with good general attitudes and abilities and they'll be a great BA, PM, salesperson, CEO, groundskeeper, whatever.

On the whole I'd disagree with this. Yes there are exceptions positive and negative but putting those aside there is no substitute for experience. Your post focuses on the fact that years of experience can still produce a crap professional. That can be true but doesn't back up the argument that lack of experience isn't a problem. You are arguing apples and pears.

You are correct saying the right person can achieve a lot more earlier than others in a short timescale but if you just haven't had the time to get immersed in your profession and encountered all the situations possible a few times over you have got the 'experience' to deal with anything. You can follow PM process and have a good head on you regarding to risk, planning and the like but you won't have many lessons learned and situational experience.

Depends on the role of course, management level roles involve a lot of politics and understanding the organisation and external impacts. Something only time tends to teach you. Tech guys won't need this.

The problem is finding this person out of the dross that comes with it. The client would have to have a very good interviewer to spot the BS'ers that are just quoting process from their last client rather than showing an overarching understanding that applies to any process whatever client has.

[NibblyPig]

I'm just surprised at the lack of skills and expertise the 'average' contractor has. I don't know if our situation is a bit out of the ordinary for some reason but if this is the general experience most clients get I'm not surprised contracting is f'ked and clients/agents have issues with us.

Main problem I've found is that clients have absolutely no idea what they're doing. Most of them don't know what a contractor is, many don't bother with a basic interview/evaluation. They don't monitor a contractor's performance/ability, and they don't understand how you can just fire them on the spot.

Some will literally hire a contractor and believe that magically things will fix themselves without assigning the contractor any work. Some hire contractors before the project has started and they end up twiddling their thumbs. Larger companies the whole budget/approval system is so convoluted that authorisation of the funds takes an eternity and the contractor ends up coming in without anyone remembering why they were hired in the first place.

As a result, the crap ones are not given a slap across the face and told to come back when they have some skills.

Crap contractors are entirely the clients fault, unfortunately it is *other* clients faults for letting them think they can do it.