Reply to: backstabbing, bitching, sucking up to the boss.

[psychocandy]

I don't see anything wrong with putting extra hours in at the key parts of a project as required because it's all part of IT delivery - the plan is too aggressively crashed late on because earlier deliverables have been delayed. Putting in 10+ hours a day every week is a complete no/no as they come to expect it then.

Hmmm. Dunno. MAybe different because I dont work on projects but surely if, even at the end, there is extra hours needed then its been resourced incorrectly?

BAU stuff - emergencies happen. No-one can predict. These are cases where extra hours, IMHO are valid. Not piss poor planning from the client as the old saying goes.

[psychocandy]

Or see you as an unprofessional lazy contracting scumbag (his opinion, not mine).
Don't forget that a lot of permies don't distinguish because they know you're paid more so think you should be there at least as long as they are.

But I think I agree with OP saying on this one.

Not my problem what the permies chose to do. Find some other mug if thats what you want.

[psychocandy]

Permanently? On short term contracts? Summat not right there.

OK. Fair enough it its short-term. BUT I choose not to. I'd rather be a bit poorer and not have to do this.

But wife work thing is not negotiable. I can hardly expect her to go to her employer and say sorry I cant work for 3 months because my husbands contract is making him do extra stuff for free. Won't wash.

Of course, I could decide to do that and wife doesnt have to work. But A) she likes her job and B) As above I dont want my life to be dictated to by client.

Might work for others but not me.

[LondonManc]

I don't see anything wrong with putting extra hours in at the key parts of a project as required because it's all part of IT delivery - the plan is too aggressively crashed late on because earlier deliverables have been delayed. Putting in 10+ hours a day every week is a complete no/no as they come to expect it then.

[northernladuk]

Permanently? On short term contracts? Summat not right there.

[psychocandy]

Yeah the invoice amount is the same but that's the problem, unless your contracted and paid on delivery of a product rather than on time you're working for nothing..

Taking it to extremes, imagine a minimum wage worker contract says 40 hours a week.. Manager says do 50 or find a new job... Hourly rate effectively becomes less than min wage...
That example is from a period early in my career where a 54 hour week but getting paid for 35 was was expected.

BUT, we have a choice where other don't maybe...

Yes permies sometimes get talked into putting the hours in with either a carrot danged over their head or a big stick behind them. But in my experience, it rarely pays off.

With contracting, we have a choice. I'm not willing to PERMANENTLY work 50 hours per week - even if they pay me the extra. Because:-

1. I'd have no life.
2. I'd never see my kids.
3. My wife probably would have to quit her part-time job because of childcare issues so we'd be worse off (even if they paid me the extra).

Appreciate though that if you're on mimum wage, need the job to put food on the table then sometimes its not a choice you have.

[LondonManc]

I'd probably say "You're asking me to take a pay cut below market rate? Has my service to you really been that bad? I wasn't aware of any problems."

If he then says "No, no not at all, we just want you to work longer, work ethic blah blah"

Then say "Ohh my mistake! No problem, I'll just invoice you for the extra hours."

His only move at that point is either to say 'nevermind', 'ok', or 'but we want you to work more for free' which will make him look like an ass, to himself

Or see you as an unprofessional lazy contracting scumbag (his opinion, not mine).
Don't forget that a lot of permies don't distinguish because they know you're paid more so think you should be there at least as long as they are.

[NibblyPig]

I'd probably say "You're asking me to take a pay cut below market rate? Has my service to you really been that bad? I wasn't aware of any problems."

If he then says "No, no not at all, we just want you to work longer, work ethic blah blah"

Then say "Ohh my mistake! No problem, I'll just invoice you for the extra hours."

His only move at that point is either to say 'nevermind', 'ok', or 'but we want you to work more for free' which will make him look like an ass, to himself

[gables]

Yeah the invoice amount is the same but that's the problem, unless your contracted and paid on delivery of a product rather than on time you're working for nothing..

Taking it to extremes, imagine a minimum wage worker contract says 40 hours a week.. Manager says do 50 or find a new job... Hourly rate effectively becomes less than min wage...
That example is from a period early in my career where a 54 hour week but getting paid for 35 was was expected.

Yup, I do agree and it's determining where to draw the line. Like I said I'd not want to add 1.5 hours to my day as regular thing.

[Elliegirl]

You didnt mention 11-2 there though ;-)

I err...had to attend an offsite workshop.....:

[Snarf]

Well yes, the hour rate is 'effectively' being reduced but the actual invoice amount is the same, so not a pay cut in real terms.

Having said that I would be very reluctant to (probably wouldn't) increase my hours from 7.5 to 9 on a regular basis. But I would talk with him to get to the root of the issue.

Yeah the invoice amount is the same but that's the problem, unless your contracted and paid on delivery of a product rather than on time you're working for nothing..

Taking it to extremes, imagine a minimum wage worker contract says 40 hours a week.. Manager says do 50 or find a new job... Hourly rate effectively becomes less than min wage...
That example is from a period early in my career where a 54 hour week but getting paid for 35 was was expected.

[gables]

I think that this is a really easy one to answer.

If your contract says that you need to be there 37.5 hours a week and they only pay you that amount then every hour extra you do is effectively lowering your hourly rate.

I'm taking a guess at day rate..

£400 / 7.5 hours = £53/h
£400 / 9 hours = £44/h (based on a 37.5 hour contract that puts your day rate at £330)

Are you willing to take almost a £70 a day pay cut just because some of the permies are doing an extra 1.5 hours a day? I know what my answer would be.

Well yes, the hour rate is 'effectively' being reduced but the actual invoice amount is the same, so not a pay cut in real terms.

Having said that I would be very reluctant to (probably wouldn't) increase my hours from 7.5 to 9 on a regular basis. But I would talk with him to get to the root of the issue.

[psychocandy]

Or, he earns 2k a week for six months.
You got 2k a week for three months and £70 a week JSA for three months.

You're obsession with an hourly rate is disturbing.

No its just I'd rather spend my time doing stuff I want to do rather than let client dictate extras for me.

And for the record, no never. Only time I claimed JSA was years ago when a contract ended as it was always planned.

Anyway whats a warchest/JSA for? I certainly dont plan to bend over and take it from clients just so I can be richer and richer. Sod that.

[LondonManc]

60 hours week and he gets same as me doing 37.5 hours per week. Call it £400 a day say. He gets to stay for 6 months I get canned after 3 months. Assume 60 days per quarter.

So he works 120 days at 12 hours per day = 1440 hours. 120 days at £400 = £48000. £33.33 per hour.

Me. 60 days at 7.5 hours per day = 450 hours. 60 days at £400 = £24000. £53.33 per hour.

Sorry I'd rather earn £24K over three months at £50+ per hour, then get something else rather than work myself to death for £48K over six months at £33 an hour.

Or, he earns 2k a week for six months.
You got 2k a week for three months and £70 a week JSA for three months.

You're obsession with an hourly rate is disturbing.

[psychocandy]

I personally like to mess with everyone's heads by working with my rather random body clock.
So there'll be times when I do 7.30-7pm, 7.00-5pm, or 9-5pm for example. Then I'll answer emails at 6 am or 10pm, depending on how I feel. I get comments initially but then people get used to it. The thing is to be around for important meeting and focus on delivery. Works for me.

You didnt mention 11-2 there though ;-)