Reply to: Ajilon - "Employed Consultant"

[monobrow]

So you're saying this is a justification for squeezing more margin from the contractor who's set up a business, paid an accountant, does admin, get's insurance, runs the risk of getting investigated by HMRC, has no job security, no employee benefits, pays his/her own pension etc?

And you're saying consider the poor nurses on 18k as an example of why contractors should be giving you that much more of a margin for no extra 'value'

Oh dear... And what 'value' are the agencies offering these schemes adding to the equation exactly.

In fact - what value are they contributing to society? I mean think about those people who give up their lives and go and work for charities for nothing but actually add some value



WSS - some people choose permie, some people choose contract. This is a contract under permie conditions/pay with an extra chunk for the agent, am I wrong?

You raise a fair point, however I also think it's pretty naive to assume that the agencies are in business for "us". I agree they add little value, but do they add less value than any established consultancy who pays someone 100k a year and charges them out at 2k a day?. Do they complain? Maybe not as much, is it because they are on what you consider to be a high salary? Perhaps, but the same concept applies.

Is Wayne Rooney worth 250k a week (when he is generating 5x that in revenue for the club) ? Is a star trader worth a 1mil bonus (when he manages a 2.5 Bn portfolio?)

My view, we are all adults and should have enough nous to negotiate our own terms, if we agree to them, we should stick by them or move on and not complain about it.

If these guys are telling you that your terms are changing, leave or negotiate terms that suit you.

[SueEllen]

To continue with the concept of devil's advocate - invariably opportunities are created and taken, not given - you cannot assume that a high earning individual has achieved his wealth through being in the right place at the right time. Also everyone has freedom of choice and nurses are not forced into the profession at gunpoint. I think we could all agree that nurses bring more to the NHS than their higher paid 'managers' but both parties chose their career path knowing all the pro's and con's.

Being related to a fair few nurses I should point out:
1. Nurses unlike NHS managers are aware they can get qualified and gain initial experience in the UK and go elsewhere in the world to have a better standard of living and much higher pay, or can work privately in the UK. Unlike NHS managers who have no clinical experience or medical qualifications.
2. Some nurses trained by the NHS and with nursing experience work as highly paid NHS managers. Having been nurses they get more respect from clinical staff than those managers who have no clinical experience.

[Jog On]

Devils Advocate?

if you are out of work, get offered a job and are happy with the terms then great.

if you are a highly paid, highly skilled, highly ego'd contractor who wouldn't work for less than 2k a day "because you're worth it", then bully for you, but I personally don't think such a negative response to all schemes are worthy of so much criticism?

I can see the headlines now, "business in, trying to make as much money as possible from customer" shock...

i'm sure if given the opportunity all of us would want to make as much profit as possible from whoever our clients may be.

if you want to talk about value, stop thinking about IT Contractors on 100k+ a year doing helpdesk work and think of people who study for years to be a nurse on 18k a year and actually bring something useful to society...

/rant off

So you're saying this is a justification for squeezing more margin from the contractor who's set up a business, paid an accountant, does admin, get's insurance, runs the risk of getting investigated by HMRC, has no job security, no employee benefits, pays his/her own pension etc?

And you're saying consider the poor nurses on 18k as an example of why contractors should be giving you that much more of a margin for no extra 'value'

Oh dear... And what 'value' are the agencies offering these schemes adding to the equation exactly.

In fact - what value are they contributing to society? I mean think about those people who give up their lives and go and work for charities for nothing but actually add some value

To continue with the concept of devil's advocate - invariably opportunities are created and taken, not given - you cannot assume that a high earning individual has achieved his wealth through being in the right place at the right time. Also everyone has freedom of choice and nurses are not forced into the profession at gunpoint. I think we could all agree that nurses bring more to the NHS than their higher paid 'managers' but both parties chose their career path knowing all the pro's and con's.

WSS - some people choose permie, some people choose contract. This is a contract under permie conditions/pay with an extra chunk for the agent, am I wrong?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Devils Advocate?

if you are out of work, get offered a job and are happy with the terms then great.

if you are a highly paid, highly skilled, highly ego'd contractor who wouldn't work for less than 2k a day "because you're worth it", then bully for you, but I personally don't think such a negative response to all schemes are worthy of so much criticism?

I can see the headlines now, "business in, trying to make as much money as possible from customer" shock...

i'm sure if given the opportunity all of us would want to make as much profit as possible from whoever our clients may be.

if you want to talk about value, stop thinking about IT Contractors on 100k+ a year doing helpdesk work and think of people who study for years to be a nurse on 18k a year and actually bring something useful to society...

/rant off

To continue with the concept of devil's advocate - invariably opportunities are created and taken, not given - you cannot assume that a high earning individual has achieved his wealth through being in the right place at the right time. Also everyone has freedom of choice and nurses are not forced into the profession at gunpoint. I think we could all agree that nurses bring more to the NHS than their higher paid 'managers' but both parties chose their career path knowing all the pro's and con's.

[monobrow]

Devils Advocate?

if you are out of work, get offered a job and are happy with the terms then great.

if you are a highly paid, highly skilled, highly ego'd contractor who wouldn't work for less than 2k a day "because you're worth it", then bully for you, but I personally don't think such a negative response to all schemes are worthy of so much criticism?

I can see the headlines now, "business in, trying to make as much money as possible from customer" shock...

i'm sure if given the opportunity all of us would want to make as much profit as possible from whoever our clients may be.

if you want to talk about value, stop thinking about IT Contractors on 100k+ a year doing helpdesk work and think of people who study for years to be a nurse on 18k a year and actually bring something useful to society...

/rant off

[Jog On]

So basically it's a way for agencies to squeeze more margins from the contractor while billing he client the same as they would regardless of the contractor being a LTD or 'employed' consultant?

Is this the same as going 'pro rata' or is that something else?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I think this is just a pre-cursor to the introducton of the Agency Workers Directive at the end of next year. At that point anyone on a 12 week+ contract will have to benefit from full employment rights from the agency/client/umbrella

Agency Worker Directive and Regulations 2010 | Policies | BIS

Definitions of Agency Worker for the purposes of the legislation as follows:

The meaning of agency worker
3.—(1) In these Regulations “agency worker” means an individual who—

(a)is supplied by a temporary work agency to work temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of a hirer; and.
(b)has a contract with the temporary work agency which is—.
(i)a contract of employment with the agency, or.
(ii)any other contract to perform work and services personally for the agency..
(2) But an individual is not an agency worker if—

(a)the contract the individual has with the temporary work agency has the effect that the status of the agency is that of a client or customer of a profession or business undertaking carried on by the individual; or.
(b)there is a contract, by virtue of which the individual is available to work for the hirer, having the effect that the status of the hirer is that of a client or customer of a profession or business undertaking carried on by the individual..
(3) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a) an individual shall be treated as having been supplied by a temporary work agency to work temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of a hirer if—

(a)the temporary work agency initiates or is involved as an intermediary in the making of the arrangements that lead to the individual being supplied to work temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of the hirer, and.
(b)the individual is supplied by an intermediary, or one of a number of intermediaries, to work temporarily for and under the supervision and direction of the hirer..
(4) An individual treated by virtue of paragraph (3) as having been supplied by a temporary work agency, shall be treated, for the purposes of paragraph (1)(b), as having a contract with the temporary work agency.

(5) An individual is not prevented from being an agency worker—

(a)because the temporary work agency supplies the individual through one or more intermediaries;.
(b)because one or more intermediaries supply that individual;.
(c)because the individual is supplied pursuant to any contract or other arrangement between the temporary work agency, one or more intermediaries and the hirer;.
(d)because the temporary work agency pays for the services of the individual through one or more intermediaries; or.
(e)because the individual is employed by or otherwise has a contract with one or more intermediaries..
(6) Paragraph (5) does not prejudice the generality of paragraphs (1) to (4).

[SueEllen]

So EC model allows to charge client less, percieved less flightrisk as consultant is employed..... whilst still allowing MUCH BIGGER margin for agency than using day rate contractors.

Considering I know lots of people of different ages including those with young children and a mortgage who have walked out of various jobs within 2 months of starting the risk is very "perceived".

Unfortunately in the UK too many companies take the p*ss out of people with working hours.

[Another Agents View]

In 15 years never seen such a thing, the contractor/employee getting less that day rate contractor? Sure all the time, but the client paying less? Never. More common to see client paying 50% more and up (worst ever seen was a difference of 300% between what contractor/employee was getting and what client was paying)

Hell part of reason we got IR35 was because foreign IT service firms (mainly US based) paid a lot of money to politicians because they could not compete with day raters

Apologies bashed out that too quickly at end of a busy day. Meant to say IT Services companies putting consultants in at cheaper cost (TO Provider NOT TO Clientco) than day rate contractor.
So EC model allows to charge client less, percieved less flightrisk as consultant is employed..... whilst still allowing MUCH BIGGER margin for agency than using day rate contractors.

Makes a nonsense of the posts discussing what margin is fair for an agency to charge.

[2BIT]

the way i see these permanent consultant roles is the worst of both worlds- basically you have the same travel as you would as a contractor and likely project based work (which can mean long days) but you get a permie wage and have all the permie stuff to contend with, moreover you'll likely have to fill in weekly timesheets and expense claims too giving you that extra admin overhead and initial outlay to cover trains, planes and hotel rooms.

I guess it depends on how much they are offering as a salary and what the travel will be like.

[BolshieBastard]

This has just happened to me this morning!!
An email from Adecco, telling me all contractors are going to be invited to become "Employed Consultants".

Not sure of the exact terms yet, but I'm sure they can't be good.

Im at a large international bank through adecco atm on a very important project. They better not try this with us. Havent heard anything to suggest they will either.

[cojak]

not with a bargepole.

Or yours...

(the OP's that is Mordac...)

[Not So Wise]

Basically they recognised that the IT Services firms are putting in consultants to companies at cheaper costs to clients that a day rate contractor...

In 15 years never seen such a thing, the contractor/employee getting less that day rate contractor? Sure all the time, but the client paying less? Never. More common to see client paying 50% more and up (worst ever seen was a difference of 300% between what contractor/employee was getting and what client was paying)

Hell part of reason we got IR35 was because foreign IT service firms (mainly US based) paid a lot of money to politicians because they could not compete with day raters

[Another Agents View]

Ajilon - "Employed Consultant"

"Employed Consultant" - EC model has been taken on by a number of IT recruitment firms - Ajilion, Spring, Sanderson etc. Basically they recognised that the IT Services firms are putting in consultants to companies at cheaper costs to clients that a day rate contractor...
So look at it as working for these recruitment companies as a "permanent" IT Consultant, within their IT Services arm.

Pros :-
1/ Possible employment if you're struggling to get a role (Port in a storm)
2/ Some security - EC models doesn't normally get engaged unless the contract is for less than 6 months.

Cons :-
1/ Signnificantly less money than a day rate contractor, and without the ability to manage your own business.
2/ Job security reliant on the contract extending or the IT services company (IT Services company) finding you another assignment before you've been on the bench too long otherwise redundancy situation.
3/ I don't think IT services arms of recruitment firms are as mature as dedicated IT Services firms, so may not have the back up you might expect of working for Accenture / HP / IBM etc

In my experience the EC model competes internally with the Contractor recruitment consultants in the company, but some offer rewards / bonuses to the consultants for selling the solutions, but most aren't that experienced at selling it. Defo a favourite of the companies management as the margins are significantly higher!!

Hope this is helpful insight.

[Pingu2]

I am an "employed consultant" with Spring, part of Adecco. I took the job because I needed to work. I wouldn't do it again. Their contract terms are deplorable, basically you have none of the security of being a permie with none of the benefits of being a contractor. There's no pay premium, but I'm still going to be out of contract end Jan and no way of building up a cushion. Also read their contract in detail before signing. I've got asymmetric notice periods in mine (in their favour of course) and the benefits don't kick in until they decide that your probation period has ended. Avoid if you can!!!!!!!!