Reply to: Contracting working hours: the norm

[northernladuk]

When I say "violate IR35", or "break IR35 rules", I obviously mean "put your contract at risk of being judged to be inside IR35". Stop being obtuse FFS. You are in very belligerant mood today.

Not really, if you are going to try to work around a complex piece of legislation you have to use the right terminology...

I just think your last two posts are focussing on the wrong thing. You've been around long enough so I am sure you are ok with this, it's just the wording is confusing the issue. IR35 shouldn't drive the way you engage with a client. You should be driving towards a working as a business, not a disguised employee. IR35 situation is dictated by the way you do that business, not the other way around. Negotiate so that you look like an business and the IR35 will follow. Focussing on IR35 as the driver I think is the wrong way around which is what your posts suggest, particularly when you talk about IR35 frameworks etc. You don't go to the agent to sort the IR35 issues out, you go to the agent to sort the working practices out, IR35 status changes as a result. It's the tail wagging the dog. Am sure in another context we would be exactly on the same page. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

As I said earlier, the way you work maybe the client and/or agents problem but IR35 affects only you.

[unixman]

Violate IR35?? Break IR35 rules?? What on earth are you talking about. Just opt out, no problems then.

When I say "violate IR35", or "break IR35 rules", I obviously mean "put your contract at risk of being judged to be inside IR35". Stop being obtuse FFS. You are in very belligerant mood today.

[unixman]

Violate IR35?? Break IR35 rules?? What on earth are you talking about. Just opt out, no problems then.

When I say "violate IR35", or "break IR35 rules", I obviously mean "put your contract at risk of being judged to be inside IR35". Stop being deliberately obtuse FFS.

[northernladuk]

The point is that the end "client" is making requests that would violate IR35, which is part of your contract with the agency. You and the agency have agreed that you will provide services in a manner which will not break IR35 rules. If the end client is making requests (to you) that would break IR35 rules, it is entirely the agency's problem, not yours. The agency cannot promise one thing to the end client and another, incompatible thing to you. Have a friendly word with the agency is my advice. They are motivated to keep both sides happy.

Violate IR35?? Break IR35 rules?? What on earth are you talking about. Just opt out, no problems then.

[unixman]

Well not quite... The contract should reflect the working practices. Having an IR35 'friendly contract' means squat if it doesn't match what the client needs. What is this framework stuff???? The agency has little to no clue what happens at the clients. Theirs is really commercial arrangement only. They can attempt to guess working arrangements but I would bet a lot of money that when you negotiate your contract with the agency to make it 'IR35 friendly' the client won't even know let alone care. Don't have to take my word for it. The fact that working practices trump the contract is evidence people are well aware of the situation between client/agent/contractor when it comes down to it.

The point is that the end "client" is making requests that would violate IR35, which is part of your contract with the agency. You and the agency have agreed that you will provide services in a manner which will not break IR35 rules. If the end client is making requests (to you) that would break IR35 rules, it is entirely the agency's problem, not yours. The agency cannot promise one thing to the end client and another, incompatible thing to you. Have a friendly word with the agency is my advice. They are motivated to keep both sides happy.

[northernladuk]

Well not quite. Your contract is with the agency, not the end "client". If you and the agency have both entered into an IR35 friendly contract (substitution clauses etc), then it is presumably agreed that your services are provided through an IR35 framework. If the end user (their client) is obstructing that framework, then it is a problem between the agency and their client.

I would say if the end "client" is requesting you to perform activities that would violate IR35, have a friendly word with the agent. They want to keep everybody happy and have probably had the conversation before.

Well not quite... The contract should reflect the working practices. Having an IR35 'friendly contract' means squat if it doesn't match what the client needs. What is this framework stuff???? The agency has little to no clue what happens at the clients. Theirs is really commercial arrangement only. They can attempt to guess working arrangements but I would bet a lot of money that when you negotiate your contract with the agency to make it 'IR35 friendly' the client won't even know let alone care. Don't have to take my word for it. The fact that working practices trump the contract is evidence people are well aware of the situation between client/agent/contractor when it comes down to it.

[unixman]

IR35 is your issue not the clients. It's about the way your are taxed so why should they give a damn. You turn up to deliver and fit in. Trying to dictate your hours and quoting IR35 to your new client manager is the daftest thing I've heard in a while. Working times are a tiny flag for IR35. You are just being courteous and respecting your clients working practices.

Well not quite. Your contract is with the agency, not the end "client". If you and the agency have both entered into an IR35 friendly contract (substitution clauses etc), then it is presumably agreed that your services are provided through an IR35 framework. If the end user (their client) is obstructing that framework, then it is a problem between the agency and their client.

I would say if the end "client" is requesting you to perform activities that would violate IR35, have a friendly word with the agent. They want to keep everybody happy and have probably had the conversation before.

[psychocandy]

IR35 is your issue not the clients. It's about the way your are taxed so why should they give a damn. You turn up to deliver and fit in. Trying to dictate your hours and quoting IR35 to your new client manager is the daftest thing I've heard in a while. Working times are a tiny flag for IR35. You are just being courteous and respecting your clients working practices.

I would keep an eye on jobserve if I were you.

NLUK - talking sense for once! :-)

[psychocandy]

How do you deal with a new contract, all totally IR35 compliant up the wazoo, choosing your own hours etc. and you get there on the first day and the manager has no idea what a contractor is (never used one before) no idea what IR 35 is, or how contractors work (please use our subsided canteen!) and assumes you'll be working 9-5:30pm?

I couldn't figure out a way to explain that I dictate my own hours, and the fact I'm asking if it will be a problem if I come in early to avoid rush hour traffic is not a request for permission but more to see if we can come to some arrangement.

It also makes me wonder if the contract they signed with the recruiter is anything at all like mine...

Any ideas? I don't want to completely destroy the relationship with the client because they'll probably kick me out for being high and mighty, so I am treading softly. The client agreed when I said I'd come in early, but in a way that it was only because he permitted it for some employees that had a long commute. Really I'd rather completely choose my own hours as above, a few here, a few there etc. but I need some tact to explain this...!

Pretty common. A lot of clients just want someone who does the work and they dont care what you are. They just know you're a bit different than a permie.

Yeh try it if you like but sometimes the "Im a contractor I can do what I want and you cant tell me" attitude wont work at all. No client wants an awkward git who won't fit in. Remember they're there to get the work done and keep the permies from getting upset not to keep you happy.

Fair enough, it does sometimes put you in a bit of an IR35 dodgy position but its a call only you can make. Depends how much you want to keep the gig.

[psychocandy]

You have a very jaded view of everything don't you. The best reason not to is he doesn't know. He deals with the contract. Times are up to your client. You be pretty stupid to let your agent dictate them. No need to hate the agent, just deal with the right people at the right time.

Of course but when you start a gig your only contact is with the agent before you start. Merely pointing out that asking the agent is generally not a good idea.

[Pyrrhula]

I had one contract pay hourly, it was brilliant for quiet days as you could bill your exact hours then go home. Also good when I worked long days but I was asked to keep those to a minimum as they had budgeted on day rate!

[northernladuk]

IR35 is your issue not the clients. It's about the way your are taxed so why should they give a damn. You turn up to deliver and fit in. Trying to dictate your hours and quoting IR35 to your new client manager is the daftest thing I've heard in a while. Working times are a tiny flag for IR35. You are just being courteous and respecting your clients working practices.

I would keep an eye on jobserve if I were you.

[PurpleGorilla]

How do you deal with a new contract, all totally IR35 compliant up the wazoo, choosing your own hours etc. and you get there on the first day and the manager has no idea what a contractor is (never used one before) no idea what IR 35 is, or how contractors work (please use our subsided canteen!) and assumes you'll be working 9-5:30pm?

I couldn't figure out a way to explain that I dictate my own hours, and the fact I'm asking if it will be a problem if I come in early to avoid rush hour traffic is not a request for permission but more to see if we can come to some arrangement.

It also makes me wonder if the contract they signed with the recruiter is anything at all like mine...

Any ideas? I don't want to completely destroy the relationship with the client because they'll probably kick me out for being high and mighty, so I am treading softly. The client agreed when I said I'd come in early, but in a way that it was only because he permitted it for some employees that had a long commute. Really I'd rather completely choose my own hours as above, a few here, a few there etc. but I need some tact to explain this...!

Deliver well, but manage your own affairs dude, I doubt it will cause issues. But if it does either sing the permie timetable song, or take control!

[PerfectStorm]

9-5.

If "nobody does those hours" then the sheep can do more if they choose to, but at the end of the day a contract is a contract which is in turn derived from an editable MS Word file, it would be very easy to stipulate longer hours if someone wanted to. If they haven't, then that's that and you can choose whether you want to turn what should be a favour into a regular expectation.

[NibblyPig]

How do you deal with a new contract, all totally IR35 compliant up the wazoo, choosing your own hours etc. and you get there on the first day and the manager has no idea what a contractor is (never used one before) no idea what IR 35 is, or how contractors work (please use our subsided canteen!) and assumes you'll be working 9-5:30pm?

I couldn't figure out a way to explain that I dictate my own hours, and the fact I'm asking if it will be a problem if I come in early to avoid rush hour traffic is not a request for permission but more to see if we can come to some arrangement.

It also makes me wonder if the contract they signed with the recruiter is anything at all like mine...

Any ideas? I don't want to completely destroy the relationship with the client because they'll probably kick me out for being high and mighty, so I am treading softly. The client agreed when I said I'd come in early, but in a way that it was only because he permitted it for some employees that had a long commute. Really I'd rather completely choose my own hours as above, a few here, a few there etc. but I need some tact to explain this...!