Reply to: Client says NO to time off

[unixman]

To be honest there is no reason to overreact at this point. It's a common situation for managers during silly season and their first response is to say no and see who caves. Counter his response with your situation making it clear it's not an option and then let him go look for a plan B. No one would be stupid enough to lose resources over holiday plans. Nothing unusual or malicious here so far so no need to go to war just yet.

This is the best advice for this situation and many others. I would add - involve the agent. They are paid to resolve these situations and they are good at it. The OPs position is very reasonable that the client is bound to come around. In fact the OP's case is so reasonable I am having a slight problem believing it.

[psychocandy]

More to the point, they're going to be totally screwed when someone gets hit by a bus and has unforeseen absence.

Notwithstanding any IR35/D&C arguments, I tend to take time off "like a permie". That is, I approach the client and say "I'd like to take a few days off next week, is that OK?" or "We're thinking about a family holiday for a week in July, I assume that won't cause an issue?". I certainly wouldn't just announce my unavailability - that strikes me as unprofessional. That said, I've never had the answer "no", either, so I don't have a clear plan in my head for how I'd deal with that.

Same as I do if its within current contract. I think going steaming in and saying you wont be available is just wrong.

Especially if its a three month extension. Surely the client has right to know at start any plans (apart from the odd day)?

But like others have said, I will mention it if asked or whatever but if I book a holiday for 8 months time and current gig ends in 3 months, then I dont expect grief when it gets to the extension that covers this holiday and its inconvenient for them.

[dty]

If a project manager can't manage pre-notified absences, then he or she should go away and let someone with actual skills do the job.

More to the point, they're going to be totally screwed when someone gets hit by a bus and has unforeseen absence.

Notwithstanding any IR35/D&C arguments, I tend to take time off "like a permie". That is, I approach the client and say "I'd like to take a few days off next week, is that OK?" or "We're thinking about a family holiday for a week in July, I assume that won't cause an issue?". I certainly wouldn't just announce my unavailability - that strikes me as unprofessional. That said, I've never had the answer "no", either, so I don't have a clear plan in my head for how I'd deal with that.

[NotAllThere]

Twice (as a hiring manager) I took on contractors who told me, from the start, they'd be unable to work specific dates. On both occasions idiot project managers tried to make them come in anyway, despite it not being required at all (I used to do this thing called "resource planning"). For the first I just said "He refuses to come in - I can sack him if you like" and the pm backed down. For the second, they got to him while I was off site for a day, and persuaded him to work from home for 2 days and come in for the remaining 3. As it happened, for those five days, he wasn't required... and when we offered him a renewal, he rejected it. Which was a shame as he was my best programmer.

If a project manager can't manage pre-notified absences, then he or she should go away and let someone with actual skills do the job.

[AJ1982]

Agree completely, I have always booked my own hols outside of contracts (Aside from the odd day or two when I am "unavailable"). Renewals have come round and i have always said "Fine, but I have prebooked hols xxx", never been a problem.

[Glencky]

I'm astonished to read this thread! I'm totally with JMO21. Until a couple of years ago, I *was* 'the client' (the hiring manager for a large organisation with a pool of contractors and permies reporting to me). I can't imagine behaving as unreasonably as this..! How ON EARTH can anyone seriously expect to control what you've booked outside the contract period? And once you've got it booked, if they want to renew you, they do it on that basis - you have, quite reasonably, made prior commitments.

Previous comments about the client acting like this having absolutely no respect for you as a human being (not to mention zero understanding of any kind of supplier-client relationship, or indeed normal professional working relationship!) are absolutely spot-on, IMHO. He seriously needs a reality check.

As others have said, if the client had said... "I remember you mentioning it to me, but it's going to cause us a real problem because XYZ" and come up with a GOOD REASON, I might - but only might - consider being flexible in some way (as long as the financial recompense was there). But it would have to be a good reason. Quite frankly in my environment nobody plans an implementation or a key date in August because you'd never get anyone to care, because there are so few people. It's skeleton staff only. So I seriously doubt there's a valid reason to be in the office or the OP would probably know about it already (implementation / key date/ he's in support and there are a few key people so August is a nightmare etc etc).

Utter b-llocks. I would almost certainly be judged as too accommodating by many on these boards, and in particular I choose to operate inside IR35, so many of the issues about direction & control just don't bother me. But this is a much wider point of principle that I just wouldn't stand for. I don't have kids, but anyone trying to tell me to cancel a prebooked holiday can go and take a jump!

That's how I'd feel... what I'd actually say would be, "Sorry, it's not possible for me to cancel it. So the options are for us not to proceed with the renewal, or to renew for a shorter period up until the holiday."

I would expect that they would cave and 'approve' the holiday, and I would also expect that a moron like that would consider this a black mark against me in the future. So I'd be looking for something else ASAP.

If I had been in any way in two minds about the renewal before this and had enough money behind me, I'd just tell them thanks but no thanks.

Honestly, some people!

[psychocandy]

**** me. I'd get blamed if the cat had kittens. 😨

[borderreiver]

You are not the only one who has noticed that.

Maybe the OP needs to go on some assertiveness and team working training....

Looking at the writing style and content I'm convinced the OP is psychocandy's sockie, to be honest ...

[FarmerPalmer]

Direction & Control = no go.
Look for another contract.
I inform my clients of availability before committing.
If it's not acceptable then walk.

[TheLordDave]

I had similar with an ex Dev team lead. Politely informed him that I wasn't requesting leave, I was informing him of my inability to provide services for a period of time. He didn't like it (he was a c**k anyhow) but I felt better about our relative positions afterwards. Still got 2 more extensions out of the gig.

[SueEllen]

Since the OP only ever posts to create threads with tales of woe about ClientCo X, Y or Z I'm not sure that upsetting a ClientCo is a particularly large concern.

You are not the only one who has noticed that.

Maybe the OP needs to go on some assertiveness and team working training....

[SussexSeagull]

Tell them you accept the extension but won't be available for the two weeks in August. They will either still want you or withdraw the offer.

No point delaying an argument until July.

[BolshieBastard]

All well and good stamping your feet and demanding the time off but at the end of the day, whereas I agree I wouldnt cancel a holiday because of a client, I may not want to lose the contract IF POSSIBLE either.

I think in this case, OP should wait and see what happens for now. Causing a scene and a confrontation now doesnt seem like a good idea.

Sorry but this mindset is why you have so many issues with clients. Its not causing a 'scene.' Permie's cause scenes. Wait and see is not just a mugs game, its a recipe for disaster.

My old mum always said strike while the iron is hot. I dont advocate getting angry with the client. I just think when they pull this trick, it confirms they think you're really a permie. You're not but if you let them think that.......

[PerfectStorm]

I brought holiday up in a interview for a contract, about 8 months into the contract I would be unavailable for a month, they wanted someone available the whole time so it was a no go

But I was glad they said no then, rather than after I'd signed up

Not as glad as them...

[MicrosoftBob]

Couldn't disagree more.

Its far better to get it all sorted now. Waiting and seeing is a recipe for disaster when you find out one week before that the client still expects you to be working.

I brought holiday up in a interview for a contract, about 8 months into the contract I would be unavailable for a month, they wanted someone available the whole time so it was a no go

But I was glad they said no then, rather than after I'd signed up