Reply to: being paid less than permanent staff! What would you do?

[TykeMerc]

Quite a silly thread with limited credibility, the sock drawer is a reasonable place for the origin of the thread starter, but that's the case for most of these silly threads.

As everyone else has said, there are a few very obvious options.

1. Tell them they don't pay enough and to shove it
2. Tell them they don't pay enough, it's 50% rate increase or "you" will leave and mean it
3. Stick with it and stop moaning

Hire a lawyer and fight it, but be sure of the rights "you" want to claim.

Oh and revealing you have clearance is grounds for that clearance to be revoked.

[b0redom]

well its in the agency hands now. I do have high level security clearances.

Then you shouldn't be really revealing that on a public Internet forum should you?

So up to the client to find someone as cheap as me to replace me with the relevant clearances needed.
Or pay more either to myself or someone else.

I'm pretty sure you're a sockie, but if you're not, you need to ask yourself (as someone previously said), if the client turns around tomorrow and says, "Enough. You're fired." What will you do? You know you have no employment rights as a contractor right? You can't sue for anything. My other half works in the area, isn't really a decent fall back position.

[AMH]

well its in the agency hands now. I do have high level security clearances.
So up to the client to find someone as cheap as me to replace me with the relevant clearances needed.
Or pay more either to myself or someone else.

[b0redom]

Nope, I have never had my contracts reviewed for IR35 as I believe I am in scope.
It matters because if I am doing the same job, with the same responsibilities, then I should be paid equal. Not 30-40% less.

Sorry to be harsh, but why? If I can get one subcontractor for half the price I can pay my staff, why wouldn't I?

I got confirmation with the agency that I have not signed a AWR waiver.

So? Makes no odds to your billable rate etc

Last year, the whole IT department got outsourced to a manage service company - so it is only recently the difference in salary has come to my attention & I don't feel valued.

As for being happy to accept the original rate, I was - because I was out of work for 18 months recovering from a serious accident. Hence my skill set fell behind. I am trying to train atm via books & nuggets to get my skills back to being current.

Sorry, but again makes no odds. You either need to skill up and/or move or suck it up.

[TheFaQQer]

part of the problem of getting outsourced... it became a dead end job. Not even the permmies have anyway to progress in the company.
As for looking for a permmy job (or another contract) - i live in the middle of nowhere - so roles are hard to come by. I am not in the situation where I can move because of my partners job.

So if the client turn around today and say "that's it, no more contract, you're out the door on Friday" what would you do?

And if you start bleating to them about how you need a 30-40% increase to match their permanent staff, then I wouldn't be too surprised if that's what they said. The great thing about running your own business is that you can choose who you work for, when you work, and where you do it - I suggest that you start thinking about that and consider what your options are from here.

[AMH]

Your best move would be into another role that is not caught by IR35, although if you want to be valued then I'd dust off the CV and look for a permanent role elsewhere (since one isn't available at your current employer).

You've been there four years now - if you haven't managed to get your skills up to date in that time, then I'd look at a decent permie job for a year or so to get the skills back, and then try again when you have brought them up to date.

Good luck.

part of the problem of getting outsourced... it became a dead end job. Not even the permmies have anyway to progress in the company.
As for looking for a permmy job (or another contract) - i live in the middle of nowhere - so roles are hard to come by. I am not in the situation where I can move because of my partners job.

[TheFaQQer]

Nope, I have never had my contracts reviewed for IR35 as I believe I am in scope.
Yes, my work practice mirrors permies
I believe I am in IR35 scope & have always operated my business that way - im only slightly better off being LTD than an umbrella, to give you an idea of the rate I am on.
It matters because if I am doing the same job, with the same responsibilities, then I should be paid equal. Not 30-40% less.
I got confirmation with the agency that I have not signed a AWR waiver.

Last year, the whole IT department got outsourced to a manage service company - so it is only recently the difference in salary has come to my attention & I don't feel valued.

As for being happy to accept the original rate, I was - because I was out of work for 18 months recovering from a serious accident. Hence my skill set fell behind. I am trying to train atm via books & nuggets to get my skills back to being current.

Your best move would be into another role that is not caught by IR35, although if you want to be valued then I'd dust off the CV and look for a permanent role elsewhere (since one isn't available at your current employer).

You've been there four years now - if you haven't managed to get your skills up to date in that time, then I'd look at a decent permie job for a year or so to get the skills back, and then try again when you have brought them up to date.

Good luck.

[SpontaneousOrder]

This whole AWR tribunal thing, given the context you've outlined, sounds like the kind of thing that gives the rest of us a bad name.

[AMH]

Are you a sockie? Seriously, you've been at the same client for 4 years? If you don't understand AWR (and good luck with a tribunal BTW) did you ever get your contract reviewed with regard to IR35? Do your working practices mirror the permies, or do you operate as a real business?

Why does it matter what the permies are on? Presumably you took the rate because it was acceptable to you. Jealousy is not a good way to approach the situation. As others have said, there's not a great deal you can do until renewal time when you can say, "I want £x....." and then shut up and wait for their counter offer, which may of course be, "Ok. Bye then."

Nope, I have never had my contracts reviewed for IR35 as I believe I am in scope.
Yes, my work practice mirrors permies
I believe I am in IR35 scope & have always operated my business that way - im only slightly better off being LTD than an umbrella, to give you an idea of the rate I am on.
It matters because if I am doing the same job, with the same responsibilities, then I should be paid equal. Not 30-40% less.
I got confirmation with the agency that I have not signed a AWR waiver.

Last year, the whole IT department got outsourced to a manage service company - so it is only recently the difference in salary has come to my attention & I don't feel valued.

As for being happy to accept the original rate, I was - because I was out of work for 18 months recovering from a serious accident. Hence my skill set fell behind. I am trying to train atm via books & nuggets to get my skills back to being current.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Surely a spoof thread? You found out permies were on more, so you want more, so you're going to quit - which means less (i.e. nothing) ? Doesn't make sense.

[colinrobinson]

Has the scope of work changed

Your best chance of re-negotiation in role is to suggest the scope of the role has changed since you negotiated your original contract .

If it hasn't then you've got little room as you contracted to do x for £y

Another route is to reduce your daily hours effectively a rate increase to get some quality time at home. take fridays off and accept you've got a better life.

[tarbera]

I bet your agent is charging 100%+ margin on your rate

I remember one contractor working for IBM for 7 years on £60 a hour, when the onsite agent got replaced by one of fixed margin his rate went up to £146 a hour - never forget the look of happiness in his face with the massive rise, to him turn purple within 60 seconds after working out he had lost £1.2million quid, then when IBM discovered (as he made Such a fuss) he had been working for 7 years for £60 they cut his rate to £74 he should have kept stume

[BolshieBastard]

Ill speak to the agency this morning.
going permy is not an option.

I posted asking for help on how to approach the situation.
I dont need to be told to quit, look elsewhere, go permy, etc.
They are the options I have to consider afterwards. Along with possibly a tribunal route under AWR.

What you need to understand is this. You've asked for a rate rise and got none. So, the scenario must be something like this;

AMH to agent. Ive been here 12 months. Im well thought of and produce good work. I want an increase this renewal.
Agent to AMH. Leave it with me I contact client. [Later] Ive spoke to client, they're very happy with you but no extra budget. Will you extend?
AMH to agent. Yeah, ok.

12 months later
AMH to agent. Ive been here 24 months. Im well thought of and produce good work. I want an increase this renewal.
Agent to AMH. Leave it with me I contact client. [Later] Ive spoke to client, they're very happy with you but no extra budget. Will you extend?
AMH to agent. Yeah, ok.

12 months later
AMH to agent. Ive been here 36 months. Im well thought of and produce good work. I want an increase this renewal.
Agent to AMH. Leave it with me I contact client. [Later] Ive spoke to client, they're very happy with you but no extra budget. Will you extend?
AMH to agent. Yeah, ok.

12 months later.
AMH to agent. Ive been here 48 months. Im well thought of and produce good work. I want an increase this renewal.
Agent to AMH. Leave it with me I contact client. [Later] Ive spoke to client, they're very happy with you but no extra budget. Will you extend?
AMH to agent. Yeah, ok.

Mate, they're very unlikely to give you an increase if ever because you keep accepting the extensions. The agent knows you arent going to walk although he will probably realise you're going to leave some day.

You need to wise up your strategy. If you want a rise, you have to tell the agent you'll walk (you may have done this) and be prepared to do if you dont get a decent increase. Clearly, you havent dont this and the agent knows he can just call your bluff.

You might be lucky to get an increase out of him this time but, seeing as you've been at the same client for 4 years, you really should be moving on.

[jmo21]

You're seriously asking what to do here?

If you ask for a rate rise (or a permie asks for a salary rise) and they say no, there is little you can do other than call their bluff and hand in your notice.

What the permies or other contractors are on is nothing to do with you. There is no unfairness here.

Yes, you can be annoyed, and try to negotiate, but if they won't budge, there is not much you can do.

[RasputinDude]

Ill speak to the agency this morning.
going permy is not an option.

I posted asking for help on how to approach the situation.

You have had it - you demand a rate increase or terminate (if you can). Be prepared for the agent to call your bluff, buff up the old CV and start making contact with pimps.

I dont need to be told to quit, look elsewhere, go permy, etc.

You need to consider all of the options - including quitting, looking elsewhere or going permanent.

if the rate doesn't go up to what you want, then either you stay (as you have before) or you need to quit and look elsewhere There are no other options are there?. Also, don't rule out permy on nothing more than idealogical grounds - if the package is good for you, consider it.

They are the options I have to consider afterwards. Along with possibly a tribunal route under AWR.

Get some serious advice beforehand because I don't think that you'll have a leg to stand on. You'll just throw money at the lawyers. Are you a member of IPSE? If you are, get onto their legal helpline. If not, join, pay your money and then get on to their legal helpline.