Reply to: Help please

[meridian]

OP - the situation would appear to be that you work through your own Ltd Co and secured some contract work with an advertising agency for a verbally agreed daily rate of £385.00. At some point you decided that, if you worked, what you considered to be, longer than a standard working day you would bill more than the agreed daily rate.

If this summary is correct then the client is correct in revisiting your timesheets as they have not been charged in accordance with the agreed rate. You work in business on your own account - if you ended up working a 16 hour day then you either need to accept that, as a business man, there will be times when you will need to work above and beyond those hours that are acceptable in the permie world or you will need to negotiate with the client so that you don't end up out of pocket. Either way, as a business man, you should ensure, moving forward, that you never work without a written contract which is negotiated between all parties and that you understand your responsibilities as a Director of a Ltd Co - as a matter of interest have you been operating PAYE on your earnings or have you taken dividends from your company - if it's the latter and you don't understand IR35 you may end up with a rather unpleasant visit from HMRC.

I think it goes a little bit further than this - the OP charged on a combination of daily rate for any day s/he was in the office, adjusted to increase a bit on some days that s/he worked more than 8 hours, but then only filling in time sheets for hours that the agency considered "billable" to their end client, and it now looks like the agency is going back to recalculate on only the billable hours and not the retention time?

[psychocandy]

Oh dear - verbal contract.

OP - Does sound like client/agent is trying it on a bit now though and are a bit put out your leaving. IMHO, if you've got a day rate then the client/agency can't sign off timesheets in the first place and then go back retrospectively and moan about it.

If you turn up and do 6 hours every day then I'd say client has got to raise this as an issue at the time not months later but there we go.

Always dangerous filling out internal timesheets like this and allowing for slack. didnt they have an admin code or something? thats what I did in the past if client was dead keen on breaking it all down.

Alternatively, dont worry about this break time and just roll it all in. i.e. If you're working on one end client for the day stick it down as 7-30 and dont bother with 7 hrs work 30 mins in the crapper. Stick it all down.

Do you think the big consultancies say to their customers, tell you what we'll knock 30 mins (7%) off this days bill cos the consultant had a bit of a dodgy curry the night before and had a few 10 mins dumps?

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

OP - the situation would appear to be that you work through your own Ltd Co and secured some contract work with an advertising agency for a verbally agreed daily rate of £385.00. At some point you decided that, if you worked, what you considered to be, longer than a standard working day you would bill more than the agreed daily rate.

If this summary is correct then the client is correct in revisiting your timesheets as they have not been charged in accordance with the agreed rate. You work in business on your own account - if you ended up working a 16 hour day then you either need to accept that, as a business man, there will be times when you will need to work above and beyond those hours that are acceptable in the permie world or you will need to negotiate with the client so that you don't end up out of pocket. Either way, as a business man, you should ensure, moving forward, that you never work without a written contract which is negotiated between all parties and that you understand your responsibilities as a Director of a Ltd Co - as a matter of interest have you been operating PAYE on your earnings or have you taken dividends from your company - if it's the latter and you don't understand IR35 you may end up with a rather unpleasant visit from HMRC.

[codeseo]

I am still a little confused. You seem to use agency and employer interchangeably. Are you invoicing through a limited company? Umbrella? or are you actually working for the agent as a temp?

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

There is a post which says Ltd company.

Ah yes, missed it.

[TheFaQQer]

Edit: actually, I'm not sure you've even mentioned how your business is structured. Do you run a Ltd company or are you self-employed?

There is a post which says Ltd company.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

I'm not sure what an IR35 risk is but I was asked to work per day at xx amount at their office. During those days I was asked to work on multiple clients and often multiple contracts for those clients.

Wait, you don't know what IR35 is?

Are you effectively saying that you came in and worked in their office on whatever they wanted you to? How was your relationship with the client any different to that of an employer/employee other than the fact you operated through your own Ltd company?

You better read the getting started links over there ----->

[tractor]

...

I'm not sure what an IR35 risk is but I was asked to work per day at xx amount at their office. During those days I was asked to work on multiple clients and often multiple contracts for those clients.

You need to know. You should have been aware before you started contracting. Use the links on the right to find out about IR35. There is no real excuse for not knowing about legislation that has been in force for almost 15 years and pertains specifically to your corporate entity.

[MisterMan]

Reading the OP again, they say:



I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

The MD of the advertising agency (yes the agency) I worked for is disputing my invoices based on times I submitted.

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

No, we had no contracts in place, onlay a verbal agreement that I would attend their office for xx per day

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

I'm not sure what an IR35 risk is but I was asked to work per day at xx amount at their office. During those days I was asked to work on multiple clients and often multiple contracts for those clients.

[tractor]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

If the above is correct, then I would work out what they owe you, save it up for when the come back with their estimate, bill them for the remainder of what they owe and follow the correct credit control and late payment procedure.

And next time, don't accept any work until you have a contract.

[MisterMan]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

[MisterMan]

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

As mentioned, no contract apart from a verbal agreement of xx amount per day.
I worked at the one advertising agency but was asked by the MD to work on multiple accounts.
I submitted my invoices with a break down of which clients I worked on purely for their time keeping so they could break down my time to their clients - I did this based on xx per day and not hours.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

We had no written contract - the only thing I have is an email outlining their request from a colleague of what my day rate was to be at the beginning of the job to which they paid.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

If I work it out per day that I attended their office then they would owe me more as some days I had to wait for jobs to come in whilst at their office. They are saying that they want to break my days down into billable hours and not on a booking per day as agreed verbally.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.

[tractor]

...

Reading the OP again, they say:



I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

You are absolutely correct but if there is no contract it can hardly be relevant to an IR35 determination. However the reality certainly points to 'inside'.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Reading the OP again, they say:

I informed them that their internal timesheet system, filled in by myself was for their records only and that I had been honest a put down the hours assigned to each client and the work I did for each client so they could calculate the cost to their client exactly

I'm a bit confused - who exactly is disputing the invoices and whose timesheet system was this? Is it the end clients or the agency? I'm assumed when OP say "agency" they mean an employment business but perhaps they mean "consultancy" and are referring to the end client?

If the former, then presumably they should have separate contracts for each end client they are engaged with through the client?

If the latter, then am I correct in interpreting the above as OP has been contracted to a single end client but has been working across multiple projects for multiple clients of their own client? If so, isn't this a potential IR35 risk in itself if their client has been directing them to work on whichever projects they want without separate schedules for each piece of work? Just saying...

[tractor]

...

To the OP, how can you possibly work for a single client without a signed contract let alone multiple contracts? Sounds to me like you have been making the rules up as you go along to suit you rather than sticking to a 'daily rate' framework.

Day rate is per day. If you are silly enough not to have that clarified in a contract, you have no comeback if they review the lot and adjust your billing as 'they' understood it. You would have as much of a leg to stand on as they would in court and the court would take a sensible view on the matter. I don't think they will take your side from the way you are explaining it.

If I were you, I would steal a march on the agency and work out how many actual days you attended then see how many you have overbilled per their understanding. At least you will know how much is at stake then.

ISTM you are likely to have to suck it up anyway as you have no contract. Expensive lesson, but that just shows how serious business actually is. It's not just a question of deciding to go contracting cos the money is good. It's about research and hard work that you don't get paid for but that save or make you money you WILL otherwise lose.

The sad thing of course for you and others like you is that all this info is available for free here and elsewhere.