Reply to: Timesheet IR35 indicator?

[SueEllen]

1. So, staff parties - what's the ruling on these? Where I am now, contractors have to pay and permies don't if they want to attend. Presume that's IR35 friendly.

No rule and it makes not difference to IR35.

Some clients see social events such as parties as a chance to generate good will so will invite anyone in the building at the time.

[jamesbrown]

1. So, staff parties - what's the ruling on these? Where I am now, contractors have to pay and permies don't if they want to attend. Presume that's IR35 friendly.
2. Never heard of these.
3. Never seen these either
4. Again, never seen this but like the idea of it.

Most places I've contracted are quite pragmatic about it - as a contractor you are provided with the tools to get the job done. No different to consultants that are brought in from Accenture, etc.

The three pillars are RoS, D&C and MoO. Other things can be important in creating an overall picture, but without one (ideally more) of the three pillars, the other stuff won't help you.

[LondonManc]

There aren't any quick wins and dress isn't part of it either anyway. You don't expect someone moving boxes to dress in the same way as someone meeting clients or the head of the client company.

There are however some clients who have clearly defined rules for contractors.

However these rules tend to be over small and/or social things rather than ways of working.

For example:
1. Clients who don't invite contractors to staff parties. However often this can backfire as in departments where 50% or more of the workers are contractors the permies tend to refuse to turn up as well. Most people don't like company parties so any excuse not to turn up is welcome.
2. Clients who have a on-site canteen and charge contractors a higher rate
3. Email addresses that clearly indicate who is a contractor and who isn't.
4. Contractors not allowed desk phones but permies are. (This works well because people can't ring you up and disturb you instead they have to try and find you.)

1. So, staff parties - what's the ruling on these? Where I am now, contractors have to pay and permies don't if they want to attend. Presume that's IR35 friendly.
2. Never heard of these.
3. Never seen these either
4. Again, never seen this but like the idea of it.

Most places I've contracted are quite pragmatic about it - as a contractor you are provided with the tools to get the job done. No different to consultants that are brought in from Accenture, etc.

[SueEllen]

Oh I'm not after quick wins, more general methods of conduct. I've never been concerned about it as I've followed the general advice of a couple of seasoned contractors and my accountant. I know of one guy who always looks smart but always wears jeans to work - it's his LtdCo's dress code. Whether he just does that because he can rather than for IR35 I was never sure!

There aren't any quick wins and dress isn't part of it either anyway. You don't expect someone moving boxes to dress in the same way as someone meeting clients or the head of the client company.

There are however some clients who have clearly defined rules for contractors.

However these rules tend to be over small and/or social things rather than ways of working.

For example:
1. Clients who don't invite contractors to staff parties. However often this can backfire as in departments where 50% or more of the workers are contractors the permies tend to refuse to turn up as well. Most people don't like company parties so any excuse not to turn up is welcome.
2. Clients who have a on-site canteen and charge contractors a higher rate
3. Email addresses that clearly indicate who is a contractor and who isn't.
4. Contractors not allowed desk phones but permies are. (This works well because people can't ring you up and disturb you instead they have to try and find you.)

[northernladuk]

Oh I'm not after quick wins, more general methods of conduct. I've never been concerned about it as I've followed the general advice of a couple of seasoned contractors and my accountant. I know of one guy who always looks smart but always wears jeans to work - it's his LtdCo's dress code. Whether he just does that because he can rather than for IR35 I was never sure!

If you understood IR35 then it should be pretty obvious. Ticking boxes to pretend to be outside will not work. You are business, act like one and it will become clear.

[LondonManc]

There are no "quick wins" as such with an IR35 case - you may have a series of small factors which add up to a more convincing case, but that's not the same thing.

If you are looking for a quick win, it suggests that you are only looking for a box-ticking exercise, which isn't the best way to prepare your IR35 defence.

FWIW, I don't think what you wear or when you have lunch would be any form of IR35 indicator.

Oh I'm not after quick wins, more general methods of conduct. I've never been concerned about it as I've followed the general advice of a couple of seasoned contractors and my accountant. I know of one guy who always looks smart but always wears jeans to work - it's his LtdCo's dress code. Whether he just does that because he can rather than for IR35 I was never sure!

[TheFaQQer]

Sorry for evolving the thread into an IR35 indicators thread but what other "quick wins" do people use to differentiate? For example, variable lunch hours outside of 12-2, dress code of your own LtdCo rather than ClientCo dress code, etc.?

There are no "quick wins" as such with an IR35 case - you may have a series of small factors which add up to a more convincing case, but that's not the same thing.

If you are looking for a quick win, it suggests that you are only looking for a box-ticking exercise, which isn't the best way to prepare your IR35 defence.

FWIW, I don't think what you wear or when you have lunch would be any form of IR35 indicator.

[LondonManc]

Sorry for evolving the thread into an IR35 indicators thread but what other "quick wins" do people use to differentiate? For example, variable lunch hours outside of 12-2, dress code of your own LtdCo rather than ClientCo dress code, etc.?

[jamesbrown]

Essentially because I'm working a non-standard working week (I don't work a full Friday afternoon but make up the hours outside it to deliver the minimum contractually required per week) then that's a big outside IR35 plus?

If it acts as a discriminator between you and the permies that work around you, it's a plus in terms of showing a different level of (lack of) D&C. However, it's pretty common practice for permies to be given a level of flexibility too. Essentially, with all IR35 factors, you're looking at what distinguishes you from employees. For example, having no minimum number of hours or any specific working hours, working offsite etc. would be "strong" indicators, because they aren't afforded to employees, but anything that acts as a discriminator is positive.

[TheFaQQer]

No it's quite a minor point by itself. Permies can work flexible times as well. It can be part of proving there is no D&C which would be more useful.

Just for a change, I'll disagree...

If the company absolutely will not let their employees work flexible times, but they will with contractors, then that goes a long way to proving that they don't see you as an employee.

[northernladuk]

Happy with most of the aspects of IR35 but hadn't read about the working hours part.

Essentially because I'm working a non-standard working week (I don't work a full Friday afternoon but make up the hours outside it to deliver the minimum contractually required per week) then that's a big outside IR35 plus?

TIA

No it's quite a minor point by itself. Permies can work flexible times as well. It can be part of proving there is no D&C which would be more useful.

[LondonManc]

Happy with most of the aspects of IR35 but hadn't read about the working hours part.

Essentially because I'm working a non-standard working week (I don't work a full Friday afternoon but make up the hours outside it to deliver the minimum contractually required per week) then that's a big outside IR35 plus?

TIA

[northernladuk]

We often do.

We're both right. But one of us is more right than the other

And one of us is explaining exactly how it should be but the other is trying to make all elements clear to a newbie so he can be in a position to make a decision in the future

One of us probably failed in his attempt to be fair, but he tried.

[jamesbrown]

If you aren't sure on D&C (and I think this is where most genuine contractors will win their cases, but I have no evidence for that!)

I agree that D&C is the most important real-world distinction, even if that isn't borne out by case law (I don't know). This is partly because, in may cases, several of the elements of D&C can be difficult to argue as anything other than neutral. For example, the "where" and "when" are often neutral due to the restrictions of being onsite. The "how" will be argued more neutral if you have highly specialist knowledge (since it would apply to permies too). The "what" is often more straightforward to show as positive if you are doing project-based work that is identified in a schedule of work. In any case, if you can clearly show some or all of these elements of D&C through documented evidence (e.g. by working from home, during your own chosen hours, on project-based work specified in the contract, and using your own methodologies), you'll be in a very strong position.

[TheFaQQer]

Argh, slightly contradicts northenlad but this makes sense also.

We often do.

We're both right. But one of us is more right than the other