Reply to: 4 week notice period?

[eek]

"We live and learn." ????? Seems to me you have been in similar spots time and time again so what about the 'learning' bit?

I think PC works on the basis of 20th time lucky....

[Taita]

Yeh agreed. But like you said, it was sign or walk. In hindsight, walk would have been better. We live and learn.

But I think even then, at that late stage, agent would have spun it that whatever way I would have ended up looking bad in the clients eyes.

"We live and learn." ????? Seems to me you have been in similar spots time and time again so what about the 'learning' bit?

[psychocandy]

But I still don't see any reason for you to end up starting a gig with no contract agreed. It was messy, it might not have been the most professional way of dealing with it, it might have been taking the piss somewhat but still no reason for you to start without a contract. There was clearly no negotiation to be had. You either sign or walk. In the end you did neither.

Yeh agreed. But like you said, it was sign or walk. In hindsight, walk would have been better. We live and learn.

But I think even then, at that late stage, agent would have spun it that whatever way I would have ended up looking bad in the clients eyes.

[northernladuk]

NLUK. You are missing the main point. To cut it down to a basic level:-

1) I can ask for an amendment, agent can yes or no.
2) If agent says no, I can then say yes or no.

Thats generally how negotiations work in a civilised society. One party comes up with something, the other party agrees or doesnt, if they do they do business.
But this is not what has happened here. How this went was:-

1) I ask for an amendment, agent ignores me and hides.
2) Agent plays a game knowing if he hides for long enough he wont have to negotiate.

I know agent hasn't even gone to the client with this request. He was confident in his ability to hide from me long enough to mean the contract got accepted by me turning up on site. Possibly didn't expect me to send a contract to him but know I guess hes confident to be able to blag his way out of that one.
Risky strategy maybe but he knows if it all goes tits up, he can blag his way out of it with the client and pass the blame onto me somehow.

And you dont think this is taking the piss somewhat?

Yes I could have walked away. But, all I ask is for some integrity from the agent and not stupid games and a straight answer.

But I still don't see any reason for you to end up starting a gig with no contract agreed. It was messy, it might not have been the most professional way of dealing with it, it might have been taking the piss somewhat but still no reason for you to start without a contract. There was clearly no negotiation to be had. You either sign or walk. In the end you did neither.

[northernladuk]

Link?

http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...debt-them.html

[eek]

And you dont think this is taking the piss somewhat?

Yes I could have walked away. But, all I ask is for some integrity from the agent and not stupid games and a straight answer.

No, personally it sounds like the agent has got the measure of you and is treating you with the respect you deserve...

[psychocandy]

Legally yes but it never goes legal. You are just sitting on your laurels waiting for the inevitable tulip storm that is approaching. IMO you can't call the agent names for ignoring you when stick something in and then ignore it as well.

NLUK. You are missing the main point. To cut it down to a basic level:-

1) I can ask for an amendment, agent can yes or no.
2) If agent says no, I can then say yes or no.

Thats generally how negotiations work in a civilised society. One party comes up with something, the other party agrees or doesnt, if they do they do business.
But this is not what has happened here. How this went was:-

1) I ask for an amendment, agent ignores me and hides.
2) Agent plays a game knowing if he hides for long enough he wont have to negotiate.

I know agent hasn't even gone to the client with this request. He was confident in his ability to hide from me long enough to mean the contract got accepted by me turning up on site. Possibly didn't expect me to send a contract to him but know I guess hes confident to be able to blag his way out of that one.
Risky strategy maybe but he knows if it all goes tits up, he can blag his way out of it with the client and pass the blame onto me somehow.

And you dont think this is taking the piss somewhat?

Yes I could have walked away. But, all I ask is for some integrity from the agent and not stupid games and a straight answer.

[psychocandy]

That is true but we have one thread running at the moment where it looks like the contractor won't get his blast month money and might not be worth chasing due a counter claim so could be a couple of thousand down the pan. Either way, the moral is not to get yourself into such a horrible predicament.

Link?

[northernladuk]

Even if so, and it would be difficult and expensive to prove. The other overriding factor would be establishing what compensation the agent was actually due. So even if found in breach what was the financial damage? Bearing in mind that every pimp in the UK tells us they barely make any real profit on a contract I would guess at the end of it there would be costs and 1p in damages.



Hardy worth the effort.

That is true but we have one thread running at the moment where it looks like the contractor won't get his blast month money and might not be worth chasing due a counter claim so could be a couple of thousand down the pan. Either way, the moral is not to get yourself into such a horrible predicament.

[Andy Hallett]

I do work for CF / SThree group and sit on our UK board. This is now the third time I have offered to review your issue and the 2nd thread you have posted on.

You seem more intent on sharing your experience with a bunch of strangers rather than someone who has the ability to review and take action to sort your situation if required.

My offer stands.

[northernladuk]

mostly in my experience the agency or end client is in breach of contract already when I have got so cheesed off I wanted to leave, so I would have had no heartache about leaving. some of the stuff I have seen would easily be considered harassment by any court of law, and when their side is committing a serious crime like that their reliance on any terms of the contract is worthless. I am lucky when its got that bad I have been close to renewal and simply refused to extend.

I can't help but not believing any of this. Not sure if it's the lack of caps or the fact your contract isn't with the end client so they can't be in breach. I find it very hard to believe clients allow people to commit serious crimes once, let alone multiple times as indicated.

Hey ho.

[CoolCat]

mostly in my experience the agency or end client is in breach of contract already when I have got so cheesed off I wanted to leave, so I would have had no heartache about leaving. some of the stuff I have seen would easily be considered harassment by any court of law, and when their side is committing a serious crime like that their reliance on any terms of the contract is worthless. I am lucky when its got that bad I have been close to renewal and simply refused to extend.

[northernladuk]

A pedant would suggest that they weren't in negotiations if only one party was willing to speak

But that would then also indicate there is no negotiation. Take it or leave it.

[TheFaQQer]

Using this analogy that the agent put forward a contract with a notice that PC didn't agree with so he put in a contract with a notice period that the agent wouldn't agree to it could be argued that they didn't enter in to an agreement/contract. So it isn't as clear cut as the last contract seen wins.

A pedant would suggest that they weren't in negotiations if only one party was willing to speak

[northernladuk]

Ultimately, it's a moot point - it relies on PC getting a new contract and walking from this one

That one line kinda kills the whole thread

Anyway, lots of interesting reading around this and there appears not to be one single rule for this situation. All the ones I have read are dealt with on an individual basis and some have won and some have lost but didn't find one interesting snippet...

Long complex case but in Co-op Vs ICL where they started work before concluding negotiation on some points. I don't really understand the full details so hope I am not quoting something that needs context but...

Co-op v ICL

It says...

During the trial the Judge specifically referred Mr Mawrey to the judgments in G.Scammell and Nephew Limited v Ouston [1941] AC 251 and Pagnan Spa v Feed Products [1987] 2 Lloyd’s Rep 601. In the first case, it was held by Wright LJ in the Court of Appeal that if the parties were still in negotiation about the terms of an intended contract and did not intend to be bound until those negotiations were concluded, they had not entered into any agreement.

Using this analogy that the agent put forward a contract with a notice that PC didn't agree with so he put in a contract with a notice period that the agent wouldn't agree to it could be argued that they didn't enter in to an agreement/contract. So it isn't as clear cut as the last contract seen wins.