Reply to: Customs Union Amendment

[meridian]

Customs Union Amendment

So no the wholesale grounding of all aircraft as was being claimed in earlier posts then.

I’ll repeat:
Under a “no deal” situation the EU is under no legal obligation to allow flights from the U.K. to land, or for mutual recognition of certification. This is what we know, and is in accordance with the official EU position as detailed in the link I gave you previously.
And not just the EU either, any Open Skies Agreement with any other country, which means (on the face of it and with no other agreements) the wholesale grounding of flights.

Edit: not ALL aircraft, just the ones that want to fly into other countries.

Any bare bones deal will only be necessary because of the intransigence of the U.K. government and will be whatever the EU decides to grant us. This is only the EU - there is no guarantee or agreement in place with any other nation and we will also be at the mercy of 160-odd other countries, unless they also agree a bare bones deal.

We’re now a third country that has to renegotiate every single agreement and pact around the world that previously the EU has arranged on our behalf as a leading member state. Better ask Davis and Fox what they’ve been doing for the past two years.

[Yorkie62]

...
“Bare bones” also has no definition and may mean anything from freight-only to full passenger flights and anything in between.

So no the wholesale grounding of all aircraft as was being claimed in earlier posts then.

[meridian]

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...s/aviation.pdf

2nd to last slide.

The slide that confirms that most of what you said here was nonsense?

I was merely pointing out that that was not the case. All and any aircraft in the UK would still have, and continue to have, internationally valid air worthiness certificates.

For what it’s worth, I agree that the last paragraph in the slide will happen - even in the even of “no deal” there will probably be a bare bones deal/accord of some sort. However, this is not a legal requirement for the EU and by definition is a deal of sorts so not really “no deal”. “Bare bones” also has no definition and may mean anything from freight-only to full passenger flights and anything in between.

[Yorkie62]

UK controlled transatlantic airspace handling 80% of all transatlantic flights no longer safe due to us leaving EASA after a hard Brexit according to some.

https://nats.aero/blog/2014/06/north...ateway-europe/

[Yorkie62]

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/site...s/aviation.pdf

2nd to last slide.

[WTFH]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/n...nded-aviation/
The 'open skies' row shows how Trump will exploit Brexit at Britain's cost - Business Insider
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...xit-go-435185/
Brexit could lead to doors closing on Open Skies | ATW Editor's Blog

[WTFH]

he did say that the aircraft wouldn't be able to fly because they no longer had valid air worthiness certificates. I was merely pointing out that that was not the case. All and any aircraft in the UK would still have, and continue to have, internationally valid air worthiness certificates.

So as you say all flights between the UK and America will be grounded. Taking that point to its logical conclusion there will be an awful lot of aeroplanes grounded in the US unable to fly. there will also be an awful lot of planes in the EU unable to fly. If, as you say we crash out of the open skies agreement then UK airspace becomes a no fly zone. No only for planes located in the UK but also for any other planes from any other country wishing to use UK controlled airspace. Can you really see all those planes grounded?

EU flights will be able to fly everywhere they currently do - including to/from the US. The only EU flights affected will be those to/from the UK.

And it's not me saying that, it's the Daily Telegraph, in May this year.

Or we could go back to Andrew Haines' speech in December 2016...
https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/...nes_011216.pdf

[meridian]

he did say that the aircraft wouldn't be able to fly because they no longer had valid air worthiness certificates. I was merely pointing out that that was not the case. All and any aircraft in the UK would still have, and continue to have, internationally valid air worthiness certificates.

So as you say all flights between the UK and America will be grounded. Taking that point to its logical conclusion there will be an awful lot of aeroplanes grounded in the US unable to fly. there will also be an awful lot of planes in the EU unable to fly. If, as you say we crash out of the open skies agreement then UK airspace becomes a no fly zone. No only for planes located in the UK but also for any other planes from any other country wishing to use UK controlled airspace. Can you really see all those planes grounded?

Look, this isn’t too hard for you to do your own research.

On 13 April 2018 the EU published their position on EASA. You can find it here:

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...ion-safety.pdf

Section 1 states

In accordance with Article 20 of the Basic Regulation6, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) carries out the functions and tasks of the state of design on behalf of Member States with regard to the type certificates for products7, certificates for parts and appliances, and certificates for design organisations. Such certificates issued by EASA to persons and organisations located in the United Kingdom will therefore no longer be valid in the EU as of the withdrawal date. The products, parts and appliances concerned will no longer be considered as certified in accordance with Article 5 of the Basic Regulation.

Crack on and read Section 2 yourself.

Feel free to post any evidence you have to the contrary.

[Yorkie62]

Yorkie, if you look at Meridian's post he didn't say that one was because of the other. No, he was pointing out two separate issues.
As for UK planes being unable to fly into EU airspace, it also applies that flights from the UK to the US would be grounded too.
Read up on the Open Skies agreement.

Britain will fall out of the EU-US open skies deal the day after Brexit, meaning flights between America and the UK would be grounded unless an agreement is reached.

he did say that the aircraft wouldn't be able to fly because they no longer had valid air worthiness certificates. I was merely pointing out that that was not the case. All and any aircraft in the UK would still have, and continue to have, internationally valid air worthiness certificates.

So as you say all flights between the UK and America will be grounded. Taking that point to its logical conclusion there will be an awful lot of aeroplanes grounded in the US unable to fly. there will also be an awful lot of planes in the EU unable to fly. If, as you say we crash out of the open skies agreement then UK airspace becomes a no fly zone. No only for planes located in the UK but also for any other planes from any other country wishing to use UK controlled airspace. Can you really see all those planes grounded?

[meridian]

The UK will crash out with no deal. Can you see any other outcome?

Theresa "Neville" May just tries to appease everyone.

Well, not quite everyone, only the competing factions within the Conservative party (and before anyone has a go, Corbyn is just as bad and the LibDems disappeared for the crucial votes).

At a deeper level I don’t think the outcome - no deal, Norway, Canada, Remain - will solve any of our internal issues. We’re a divided nation without effective leadership, fed on a diet of lies and distractions from the media.

May’s pathetic attempts to show strength on the international stage have resulted in her sucking up to despots - Trump, Erdogan, the Saudis, Duterte, etc. I suspect Corbyn would do no better with Putin and Maduro.

None of which supports their efforts to promote “Global Britain” as a proud independent country while we withdraw into our own shell.

Sorry for the pessimism, I’m a bit depressed at the state of politics in this country at the moment.

[WTFH]

Britain will fall out of the EU-US open skies deal the day after Brexit, meaning flights between America and the UK would be grounded unless an agreement is reached.

Oh, I should have put this last bit in quotation marks, it's from the Anti-Brexit, pro-remain, EU-loving... Daily Telegraph.

[WTFH]

We will be unable to fly into EU airspace, and our aircraft will no longer carry valid air safety worthiness certificates.
.

I'm sorry but the CAA issue air worthiness certificates in the UK. Always have and always will do. So our aircraft will be able to fly. ICAO, an international organisation govern air safety world wide. They have nothing what so ever to do with the EU. The EU has no jurisdiction over ICAO. To state that any aeroplane in the UK won't be able to fly because they won't have valid air worthiness certificates is total b*ll*cks. I have worked in the air Traffic industry I know what gives who and who governs what in that industry. The only issue we may have with flying anywhere is the annual strikes that the French ATC have, and that affects everyone - except transatlantic traffic.

Yorkie, if you look at Meridian's post he didn't say that one was because of the other. No, he was pointing out two separate issues.
As for UK planes being unable to fly into EU airspace, it also applies that flights from the UK to the US would be grounded too.
Read up on the Open Skies agreement.

Britain will fall out of the EU-US open skies deal the day after Brexit, meaning flights between America and the UK would be grounded unless an agreement is reached.

[WTFH]

But this will only happen if people stop being negative about what is about to happen and embrace the change.

So, the problem as you see it is that people are being negative because they don't know what is about to happen and it's their fault.

Tells us all exactly what it is that is about to happen and why it is something to be embraced. If people knew what is about to happen, then maybe they could decide whether it is a change to be embraced or not.

[GreenMirror]

So much fail here, I really can’t be bothered any more.

If we do crash out with no deal, good luck.

The UK will crash out with no deal. Can you see any other outcome?

Theresa "Neville" May just tries to appease everyone.

[darmstadt]

I'm sorry but the CAA issue air worthiness certificates in the UK. Always have and always will do. So our aircraft will be able to fly. ICAO, an international organisation govern air safety world wide. They have nothing what so ever to do with the EU. The EU has no jurisdiction over ICAO. To state that any aeroplane in the UK won't be able to fly because they won't have valid air worthiness certificates is total b*ll*cks. I have worked in the air Traffic industry I know what gives who and who governs what in that industry. The only issue we may have with flying anywhere is the annual strikes that the French ATC have, and that affects everyone - except transatlantic traffic.

Project NOCLUE

EU exit | UK Civil Aviation Authority