Reply to: Brexit BOOM

[meridian]

Estimated amount of guns per 100 citizen Switzerland 24.45 UK 6.2 So you average Swiss person does not have a gun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

But that wasn’t what was stated, it was “at home”. You’re comparing per capita, not per residence.

Regardless, the point was that there was a reason why Swiss have higher levels of accessibility to a gun but that that was’t the argument anyway....

[Eirikur]

And there’s a reason why your average Swiss person does, but that has nothing to do with the argument.

Governments and countries that are used to holding referendums (CH, IE, etc) seem better able to have sensible rational discussions with their citizens without it all descending into lies, drama, and hyperbole. On both sides.

Estimated amount of guns per 100 citizen Switzerland 24.45 UK 6.2 So you average Swiss person does not have a gun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

[meridian]

So culturally you would equate the Swiss with Brits?

There's a reason why your average Brit doesn't have a firearm at home.

And there’s a reason why your average Swiss person does, but that has nothing to do with the argument.

Governments and countries that are used to holding referendums (CH, IE, etc) seem better able to have sensible rational discussions with their citizens without it all descending into lies, drama, and hyperbole. On both sides.

[scooterscot]

There's a reason why your average Brit doesn't have a firearm at home.

I wouldn't trust the old man with the remote control let alone anything else.

[WTFH]

Do not put man made rules which could easily be changed as the reason we cannot change.

I totally agree with you - rules such as how the UK controls its own borders - we could have changed that while still being in the EU, but successive home secretaries refused to do so
Rules about VAT on home energy bills which could have been reduced while still being in the EU, but successive chancellors of the exchequer refused to do so
Rules about deporting dangerous foreign criminals - we could (and did) that while still being in the EU, both EU citizens and non-EU citizens
Rules on immigration and benefits - we could have changed them - perhaps adopting some of the rules that other EU countries have - while still being in the EU, but successive home secretaries refused to do so

The only thing stopping that happening in the future is rules made by bigoted old men designed solely to line their own pockets.

Again, in full agreement, except Jacob Rees-Mogg, Boris Johnson, David Davies, Michael Gove, Jeremy Hunt etc are not old.
And these are the people who refused to change the rules, then tried to tell you that they couldn't.

[Zigenare]

Your posts seem to assume that violence is a requirement. One of my best mates is a fitter from Carlisle, all 6’4” 120kgs of him, he voted to leave, and we’re more than able to sit down with a cup of tea or a beer and rationally discuss things. Maybe you should give them more credit.

This isn’t a football match with winners and losers, we’re all in this together with the result and the consequences, and now that the consequences are clearer and more of a reality it seems perfectly reasonable to ask for a decision on the final plan.

We won’t get it, it’s too late for that now, but hey ho.

And on your wider subject of questioning the outcome of a democratic vote, that’s exactly what democracy is. This isn’t a dictatorship, and every democratic vote is (correctly) questioned. Every 5 years in the case of a General Election. The only reason this might agitate political extremists is because they are ***** to begin with and have a football mentality of “winner takes all”.

If you want to see a government reneging on a national referendum, take a look at Switzerland. Guess what, there was no “unthinkable territory”.

So culturally you would equate the Swiss with Brits?

There's a reason why your average Brit doesn't have a firearm at home.

[scooterscot]

The only thing stopping that happening in the future is rules made by bigoted old men designed solely to line their own pockets.

Isn't that the HoL's? Thought this was a Brexit thread!

[sasguru]

As a leave voter I have come under some serious abuse on here.

Been called a gammon, been told I am stupid, been called a racist xenophobe, backward looking, insular, unable to see the big picture - and more I suppose.

And yet not once has a compelling argument for staying in the EU been put forward.

So come on - stop telling me how bad it is going to be because we leave - tell me why it would be good if we stayed?

Pretty sure that must have happened well before the Brexit referendum.

[original PM]

Because UK business could continue to work unfettered with its biggest customers
Because UK contractors could continue to have freedom to work anywhere in Europe
Because UK scientists and researchers could continue to work in groups with others to come up with solutions
Because UK tourists could continue to travel without delays to France and Spain on their holidays, and if they took ill, receive healthcare there.
Because all of that (and more) for <3% of the UK budget is a bargain.

The only thing stopping that happening in the future is rules made by bigoted old men designed solely to line their own pockets.

Do not put man made rules which could easily be changed as the reason we cannot change.

[WTFH]

As a leave voter I have come under some serious abuse on here.

Been called a gammon, been told I am stupid, been called a racist xenophobe, backward looking, insular, unable to see the big picture - and more I suppose.

And yet not once has a compelling argument for staying in the EU been put forward.

So come on - stop telling me how bad it is going to be because we leave - tell me why it would be good if we stayed?

Because UK business could continue to work unfettered with its biggest customers
Because UK contractors could continue to have freedom to work anywhere in Europe
Because UK scientists and researchers could continue to work in groups with others to come up with solutions
Because UK tourists could continue to travel without delays to France and Spain on their holidays, and if they took ill, receive healthcare there.
Because all of that (and more) for <3% of the UK budget is a bargain.

[original PM]

As a leave voter I have come under some serious abuse on here.

Been called a gammon, been told I am stupid, been called a racist xenophobe, backward looking, insular, unable to see the big picture - and more I suppose.

And yet not once has a compelling argument for staying in the EU been put forward.

So come on - stop telling me how bad it is going to be because we leave - tell me why it would be good if we stayed?

[meridian]

You are joking, right?

Nope.

The biggest issue in the country at the moment and the official opposition being whipped to abstain? That’s not democracy.

If they had the balls to vote with the Government then fair enough, but to turn up and then not bother to vote would be shameful.

[meridian]

The ones promulgating this "news" and viewpoint are overwhelmingly are the same people who lost the referendum.



This is exactly the way Continuity Remain talks to Leave voters. People in the North East are friendly but they don't take kindly to having been called obese xenophobes for the last 2 years. I have stood in a room full of Gateshead fitters, and while some are indeed, er, slightly corpulent (sorry lads), gormless racists they certainly are not. Some remain hardliners think the fitters will accept both the cancellation of their winning votes and being called uneducated grunts. I submit that such an acceptance is unlikely. How will you convince them, water cannon ?



And you think the winning side will accept this ? Why should they? I would like a replay of the 1974 FA cup final, ("now that we know what the full impact is likely to be" etc). Are the citizens of Liverpool likely to agree to this ? Sunderland welders are in favour.




"question with no plan" etc. etc. Ugh. The question was well known long before the referendum and nobody raised a qualm. Nor did the losing side object in the aftermath, taking the defeat sadly but with good grace. I understand remainers' disappointment at the referendum, and their alarm at the consequences, but trying to convince yourselves, by rationalization or circuitous argument, that its okay to renege on a national democratic vote, is not the answer. And there is certainly no parallel to be found in the annals if UK democratic history, including the 1975 referendum.

On a wider subject, questioning the outcome of a democratic vote is of course a very dangerous thing to do, because it automatically invites into question the outcome of every other democratic vote. Perhaps not in your eyes, but in the eyes of your opponents and potential extremists among them. You query the referendum, I question the general election. You say the referendum vote wasn't binding, I (devil's advocate) say the UK government is illegitimate ...and so it carries on, into unthinkable territory.

Your posts seem to assume that violence is a requirement. One of my best mates is a fitter from Carlisle, all 6’4” 120kgs of him, he voted to leave, and we’re more than able to sit down with a cup of tea or a beer and rationally discuss things. Maybe you should give them more credit.

This isn’t a football match with winners and losers, we’re all in this together with the result and the consequences, and now that the consequences are clearer and more of a reality it seems perfectly reasonable to ask for a decision on the final plan.

We won’t get it, it’s too late for that now, but hey ho.

And on your wider subject of questioning the outcome of a democratic vote, that’s exactly what democracy is. This isn’t a dictatorship, and every democratic vote is (correctly) questioned. Every 5 years in the case of a General Election. The only reason this might agitate political extremists is because they are ***** to begin with and have a football mentality of “winner takes all”.

If you want to see a government reneging on a national referendum, take a look at Switzerland. Guess what, there was no “unthinkable territory”.

[darmstadt]

You are joking, right?

Well with the withdrawal debate coming up and the Tories being told by the whip that they have to do what May says isn't really that democratic is it? In fact they could be expelled from the party if they go against the party line, sod the people who voted you in, toe the party line regardless of what your conscience tells you

[Mordac]

And this is where any claims that the U.K. has a better democracy than the EU is a farce. Any Labour whip to abstain and the opposition may as well not turn up.

You are joking, right?