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Previously on "Theresa May's speech today"

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  • darmstadt
    replied
    ex Taoiseach John Bruton on PM's latest Brexit speech:

    My first reaction, watching Theresa May’s speech, was that The UK is going to put itself, and all the other EU countries, to a lot of trouble, so that it can it can leave EU, and then simultaneously rejoin it in selected areas.

    It wants a partnership with the EU on Customs, on state aid and competition, on transport, on energy, broadcasting, financial services, atomic power, aviation, on the enforcement of court judgements and a long list of other fields.

    As an EU member today, it already has a partnership with the 27 countries of the EU on all these things. This was worked out painstakingly over 45 years of UK membership of the EU. It now wants to tear that up, and negotiate a new partnership on all these different questions. And it wants to get the job done within two years.

    All this is being done in the name of “taking back control”, but it looks to me that, in many areas, control is being taken back, only to be given away again immediately. A lot of work, for very little product!

    Just as Gordon Brown had five “tests” for joining the Euro, which were so loose that he could interpret them any way he liked, Theresa May has five tests for an acceptable Brexit outcome, which will mean different things to different people. In fact they sounded more like the introduction to an election manifesto, than a prism through which to measure the success of a negotiation on some of the most technical and specialist of legal topics.

    Originally the UK was promising a frictionless border in Ireland. Yesterday, Mrs May seemed to retreat from that, speaking of a border that would be “as frictionless, as possible”.

    Her idea of a Customs Partnership, to avoid a hard border in Ireland, seemed like a smuggler’s charter.

    She envisages the UK having different rates of tariffs on goods entering the UK, to the tariffs charged on goods entering the EU. That is the whole point of leaving the Customs Union. She then suggests that the UK would charge the UK tariff on goods “intended” for the UK, and the EU tariff on goods passing through the UK but “intended” for an EU country (most likely Ireland).

    In this way, she hopes no customs checks would be needed at the Irish border, or in Irish ports. The scope for abuse, and exchanging of goods, seems to be unlimited here. Consignments could be substituted for one another, and there would be no check on them when they crossed the Irish border. Such an arrangement would very difficult to police, and is unlikely to satisfy the EU Customs Code.

    If the EU and the UK are to have different rates of tariff, her idea of exempting small businesses along the Irish border from any control at all seems like an invitation to smuggle.

    Presumably, Mrs May will want the EU Customs Code amended to take on her ideas. But if that is done, similar concessions will be demanded along all the other borders to which the Customs code applies, such as the EU borders in Eastern Europe. Mrs May should not forget that whatever she negotiates will have to be approved by all 27 EU countries

    The most valuable test that Mrs May wishes to apply to a Brexit agreement is that it should be one that would endure, and not require constant renegotiation.

    But she said things elsewhere in her speech that will make it very difficult to pass that test.

    She stressed that any Trade Agreement with the EU could be changed afterwards by the UK Parliament. That is a recipe for instability. At the moment the UK Parliament cannot over rule an EU rule to which the UK had previously agreed. After Brexit, that would longer be so, and, as result, business would know that everything about any future UK/EU trade agreement would be subject to the vagaries of British politics. British politics has already forced the UK to renege on 45 years of Treaty based agreements with the EU. So a mere Trade Agreement will not be a solid base for investment.

    Every time the UK Parliament tries to go back on something in the Agreement, there will have to be a new negotiation.

    Furthermore Mrs May ruled out the UK Courts accepting the decisions of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) on many disputed matters. The best she could say is that the UK Courts would “look at” ECJ rulings, before making their own British decisions. That means that UK interpretations will gradually diverge from standard EU/ECJ interpretations. When that happens, renegotiation will be inevitable.

    She advocated, instead of accepting ECJ jurisdiction, the idea of an “arbitration mechanism” that would be independent of the EU and the UK. That might work for a trade agreement with a country which trades a limited number of products with the EU. But Mrs May herself said that she wants an agreement with the EU that would cover more subjects that any trade agreement anywhere else in the world.

    An arbitration mechanism, covering the vast range of EU’s dealings with the UK, if it is to be truly independent, would soon become a rival to the ECJ. It could develop a different interpretative philosophy to the ECJ. That would undermine the common legal order of the EU, and is unlikely to be accepted.

    One of the tests that Mrs May set for an acceptable Brexit, was that it would be one that would strengthen the Union between the four “nations” that make up the UK.

    But the process of Brexit itself is having the opposite effect. In the way the referendum was set up, a majority of English and Welsh “leave” voters were allowed to overrule “remain” majorities in the two other “nations”, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    The Brexit Referendum was a crude exercise of English power, to satisfy a purely English political agenda.

    There is growing dissatisfaction in the devolved Assemblies, including even in Wales, about the way Westminster is making decisions on EU related matters, that are the prerogative of the Assemblies in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast.

    It is good that Mrs May’s speech at last got into some detail . This will have had some educational value for her Party. But the text of the Withdrawal Treaty is not yet agreed, and that must be done before any substantive negotiation can begin.

    The fact that the UK has not come up with a legal text of its own, to reflect the agreement Mrs May made in December on the Withdrawal Treaty , but is still criticising the EU version virulently, shows that we have long way to go on this unproductive and time wasting road to Brexit

    Leave a comment:


  • Bean
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
    Nope, you're the one claiming omniscience, even if it is only in your own world.

    There won't be tariff on cherries or cake if IDS has his way.
    I'm claiming there will be >=1 product, that will be tariff-free for import/export between the EU & the UK, thus making at least part of the Trade Agreement, Free.

    What are you claiming exactly, as it's hard to decipher your verbal diarrhoea sometimes (this time specifically regarding the FTA/TA)?
    (You sort of implied there deffo wouldn't be an FTA between the EU & UK but I want to ensure you don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth)

    Hmmm, no fatuous comment on jam too? NlyUk will be displeased....

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by Bean View Post
    I certainly expect there to be a number of products that both the EU and the UK wouldn't want to put any tariffs onto the export/import between us - thus making at least part of the TA, F

    but still, you know best and you know it all, apparently.
    Nope, you're the one claiming omniscience, even if it is only in your own world.

    There won't be tariff on cherries or cake if IDS has his way.

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  • Bean
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
    You can drop the F from FTAs, there's been no promise that it's going to be Free. You could always do your usual spin and say that FTA is no longer Free Trade Agreement, but Fair Trade Agreement.

    And back to one of your arguments months ago where you failed to understand the concept of EU agencies and EU standards, even TM has said the UK will be bound by the ECJ if it wants to be involved in EU agencies.

    It's almost like you've just pulled a link, said it applies to everything you said, but not bothered to read it.
    I certainly expect there to be a number of products that both the EU and the UK wouldn't want to put any tariffs onto the export/import between us - thus making at least part of the TA, F

    but still, you know best and you know it all, apparently.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bean
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
    And how is "control of our borders" different to what we could do today?
    Well, one could easily see that the current format EU FoM:
    EU migrant with a job offer = unrestricted right to come to the UK, despite what the UK gov may think (admittedly simplified)

    will be different to the future one where, for instance:
    we could set out PBS system for anyone/everyone - so we could still say no even if they have a job offer

    THAT would be true control.

    HTH BIDI

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by Bean View Post
    No jurisdiction of ECJ after Transition (except for expat rights & FTAs) [/url]

    You can drop the F from FTAs, there's been no promise that it's going to be Free. You could always do your usual spin and say that FTA is no longer Free Trade Agreement, but Fair Trade Agreement.

    And back to one of your arguments months ago where you failed to understand the concept of EU agencies and EU standards, even TM has said the UK will be bound by the ECJ if it wants to be involved in EU agencies.

    It's almost like you've just pulled a link, said it applies to everything you said, but not bothered to read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by Bean View Post
    Control of our borders
    And how is "control of our borders" different to what we could do today?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bean
    replied
    Originally posted by darmstadt View Post
    So, no remaining in the single market:



    But, want (& will pay for some) access to SM. Well she doesn't actually state that:

    SNIP

    SNIP

    "“We are leaving the single market. Life is going to be different. In certain ways, our access to each other’s markets will be less than it is now,” "

    Read between the lines and apply commonsense ?

    1. We are leaving the single market
    2. TM thinks our access will be less, not zero

    So, how do you think TM thinks the UK is going to retain some access to the SM?
    (Paying for it)


    At least you don't fatuously state that the UK has stated no positions whatsoever , unlike some

    Leave a comment:


  • jamesbrown
    replied
    Originally posted by darmstadt View Post
    One thing you want to look at carefully in this speech is that she says that the UK would like to do this but a couple of paragraphs later she says that they might just probably do something different later. Quite an ambiguous speech full of half truths...
    Right, right. As distinct from The Absolute Boy who thinks we can have a Customs Union with a veto over the Common Commercial Policy and a Single Market in which we can engage in state aid.

    Pfft.

    Leave a comment:


  • darmstadt
    replied
    Originally posted by Bean View Post
    So, no remaining in the single market:

    We are leaving the single market.
    But, want (& will pay for some) access to SM. Well she doesn't actually state that:

    If we want good access to each other's markets, it has to be on fair terms. As with any trade agreement, we must accept the need for binding commitments - for example, we may choose to commit some areas of our regulations like state aid and competition to remaining in step with the EU's.
    ...
    That means we don't want to see the introduction of any tariffs or quotas.
    What she did mention about paying for was the European Medicines Agency, the European Chemicals Agency, and the European Aviation Safety Agency however those agencies have no option for a third party country...

    We would, of course, accept that this would mean abiding by the rules of those agencies and making an appropriate financial contribution.
    Still nothing concrete though and there's only just over 12 months to go and this is all that the UK government have got around to doing after over 20 months since the referendum. Imagine a contractor doing something similar, you would have been out on your ear after a month of previcating...

    One thing you want to look at carefully in this speech is that she says that the UK would like to do this but a couple of paragraphs later she says that they might just probably do something different later. Quite an ambiguous speech full of half truths...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bean
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
    Please provide a link to where the UK Brexit negotiators, UK government, UK elected officials or UK unelected officials have said all of this.

    No remaining in the SM - In full: Theresa May's speech on future UK-EU relations - BBC News
    Want (& will pay for some) access to SM - In full: Theresa May's speech on future UK-EU relations - BBC News
    No remaining in the CU - https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-customs-union
    Any new union to be negotiated vis-a-vis - In full: Theresa May's speech on future UK-EU relations - BBC News
    No Hard border between RoI/NI - You yourself have provided multiple links already, so thanks
    Control of our borders (No more FoM in current form) - In full: Theresa May's speech on future UK-EU relations - BBC News
    Reciprocal continuity of expat communities rights - Theresa May sends Christmas message to UK citizens living in Europe | The Independent
    Able to create Trade Agreements of our own - https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-customs-union
    No jurisdiction of ECJ after Transition (except for expat rights & FTAs) - In full: Theresa May's speech on future UK-EU relations - BBC News

    Happy reading, you lazy (or google incompetent) sod

    So I will reiterate;
    The intelligent people who opposed Brexit must be out there somewhere and must be able to grasp at least some things have been voiced from the UK side, but their voices aren't being heard over the loudmouths who are clueless and tend to repeat themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • BlasterBates
    replied
    Transatlantic flights to be more expensive after Brexit due to poor US deal

    but footwear, food and clothing will be cheaper

    or maybe not

    Leave a comment:


  • darmstadt
    replied
    Originally posted by shaunbhoy View Post
    Stop posting selfies

    Leave a comment:


  • BlasterBates
    replied
    UK eat cake proposals rejected

    The UK has a simple choice either walk away or pay billions for a short implementation period that will lead to a really sh*te deal.

    Lets see what happens.

    Leave a comment:


  • shaunbhoy
    replied
    Originally posted by WTFH View Post
    And this is why it's impossible to have a debate or discussion with Brexit supporters. Eventually they point out that any contrary Bremoaner arguments are just petulant hogwash

    Leave a comment:

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