Reply to: The more sinister side of Brexit

[original PM]

Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies.

So a global market.

So I should be able to contact any company in the world and buy their product without interference then?

[OwlHoot]

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. ...

It wasn't the poor who started the civil war in the 1640s, assuming that's what you were referring to, or any previous civil wars (besides the Peasant's Revolt, which wasn't a war as such).

It was mainly King Charles struggling to obtain funds to fight the Dutch, who were muscling in on our trade here there and everywhere, and prosperous MPs refusing to vote the funds.

No doubt that is a gross over-simplification, and it's true King Charles was chronically insensitive, unreliable, and lacking in judgement in his dealings with parliament.

But it's true that people who have no stake in society, in the form of property ownership, feel they have little to lose and maybe something to gain by "shaking the tree" as it were.

So, as well as obviously increasing inequality, reducing rates of home ownership increases potential social instability.

[northernladyuk]

The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

It is sufficient intelligence that matters, not average, within this context.

[BlasterBates]

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

You say there is no work for the lower classes, but there are plenty of jobs and if a company puts an advert in the paper for someone in the lower classes for example to work on a fruit farm or work in a factory no-one applies, and therein lies the problem that the lower classes no longer exist except in the idealised world of the Brexiteer.

[BlasterBates]

Looks like Brexit no deal is now completely off the table, which was the only slither of hope left for a real Brexit.

Brexit no deal not possible

There will be lots of gnashing of teeth and then the UK will cave into whatever demands the EU have made.

Not only will it be a sh*te deal the EU will probably drag their heels which will maximise damage to the UK as companies flee the uncertainty of how sh*te the deal is going to be.

[Lance]

Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies.

I actually wish Thatcher was still around at the moment (first time ever). She’d end this debacle. And Corbyn would be toast.

[Lance]

EU Referendum Results - BBC News
Yes I do know about the Gaussian and how it works ...

Brilliant.
I slipped into the 52% briefly there....

[BlasterBates]

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

Barriers won't work, you have to compete in global markets. In any case businesses don't simply pay the lowest wage they can get away with. There are numerous academic studies to show that simply isn't the case.

One thing I can guarantee is that the people who voted Brexit because they thought foreigners were stealing their jobs will be a lot worse off.

As Norman Tebbit says they need to get off their fat backsides, get themselves some training and get a decent job instead whining. Margaret Thatcher would have called them moaning minnies.

[sasguru]

52% below average?
Citation needed.

EU Referendum Results - BBC News
Yes I do know about the Gaussian and how it works ...

[Lance]

The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

52% below average?
Citation needed.

[northernladyuk]

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

What a strawman that is! Globalisation is a tough challenge, but the West can no longer suppress industrial production in developing countries as it did in imperial times. Effective responses to the challenge are possible but complex. However, chucking petrol on the fire because we have to do something won't help.

Footnote: the Civil War and execution of Charles I did not occur in the Middle Ages.

[sasguru]

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

The biggest problem in the West is what to do with the 52% of people of below average intelligence in an economy that pays highly only for strong cognitive skills or entrepreneurship. But withdrawing from the world only makes the problem worse.

[bobspud]

You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy. Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

So there we have it. Its tough that we let china and half the developing world build stuff for almost slave labour money and as a result we have no work for our own lower classes. They will just have to sit on their arse and be poor. (not that they can because we are in the middle of making work pay...)

I'm pretty sure that executing our own Monarch and having a Civil war in the middle ages was pretty damn unnecessary too. But the problem is the poor don't really care about economics and our comfort and want a change. Im not so selfish to deny them that right just because Im better off than them.

[northernladyuk]

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...

You need to consider the lump of labour fallacy. Immigrants come into an area and don't simply displace other workers, but grow the economy, creating more jobs. A simple example, if a country of 70,000,000 had 3,500,000 unemployed and 3,500,000 people with jobs left the country, that would not solve unemployment. Of course, that does not mean that impacts do not vary locally.

In terms of outsourcing and immigration, what sits behind this is globalisation. 1950's UK enjoyed (as did other European and North American countries) the advantages of captive markets created by the suppression of industry in the developing world, either through colonialism or 'unequal treaties'. That advantage has gone and the UK et al must compete with China et al. Regrettably, the era when a working class male industrial wage could bring up a family decently in an owned home, with a final salary pension at the end (as my Dad managed) are over. A high wage economy is unlikely to be the solution, and that is a tough message to sell. But trashing the economy with Brexit is not going to help.

[bobspud]

What is interesting is that you could easily find a job in Yorkshire and/or Wales where there are huge swathes of open space but I very much suspect you wouldn't go there, because if you live in a place full of open space it is as boring as hell.

This talk about open space is a meaningless slogan.

Actually I do live in the middle of nowhere...

Its far from boring. I can do all the usual country stuff and pop into the surrounding nice cities and get trains to most places and I even have an international airport not too far away... The problem is we have not set the infrastructure up in this country to populate every square foot. We have hundreds of crapy bottlenecks all over the place.

Been more than happy with the Eastern Europeans that have been here they have washed my cars fantastically and put lots into the local economies... But the point is their gains were some local businesses lost trade. You cannot / should not expect to screw up another classes income base and not expect a kickback for hurting them...

There is a bloody good reason the youngsters are earning bugger all and that is we let outsourcing and immigration subdue wage growth...