Reply to: Brexit rebellion building in Parliament

[Cirrus]

Remind me when we voted for this? We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".

Legs don't vote to be attached to your body but if they try to detach themselves and to walk off it's only a matter of seconds before they realise the massive mistake they've just made. Whether or not you La-La Land Brexiteers like the idea that we are embedded in the EU, the fact is we have grown into one huge, massively interconnected economic entity. Trying cut a bit of that out is a major operation involving all the vital organs.

Your vote was just a black mark on a piece of paper. Stop trying to pretend it represents any kind of plausible reality.

[meridian]

Remind me when we voted for this?

Every few years, on average. We're a representative democracy, where we vote for MPs to govern and make political and legislative decisions.

If you mean specifically European integration, this is a bit more complex. This is not just political integration. We're also entwined through combined agencies, trade, services, etc. You don't get to vote on whether or not resources are pooled into a central and singular EMA, for example.

We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".

Well done. The main problem is that "not this" has been argued back and forth ad nauseum by the Leavers, and we still don't know exactly what it means. Put the detail down on paper in a draft Withdrawal Agreement then get back to the rest of us.

[Mordac]

Of course not. Brexit is like children running away from home. It doesn't take too long before it dawns on them how much they rely on their home and their family. The Brexiteers totally ignored the reality that we were part and parcel of the EU and running away from it was only going to last a few hours before the panic set in.

(I know that PosterBhoy is as cool as a cucumber. But thats' only because he is a cucumber...)

Remind me when we voted for this? We didn't, of course, but we did vote for "not this".

[Cirrus]

if this was presented to them pre-referendum as "a lot of work and some hardship for the less well-off" I don't think there would be the same appetite for it.

Of course not. Brexit is like children running away from home. It doesn't take too long before it dawns on them how much they rely on their home and their family. The Brexiteers totally ignored the reality that we were part and parcel of the EU and running away from it was only going to last a few hours before the panic set in.

(I know that PosterBhoy is as cool as a cucumber. But thats' only because he is a cucumber...)

[meridian]

I don't think that is true. That has been the thing everyone has been focusing on recently but if that were magic-ed away then you would see loads of other factors tearing the whole thing apart - UK-EU borders elsewhere, banking passporting etc etc.

This is conflating the exit from the EU (the Withdrawal Agreement) with the future relationship. Imagine for a moment if there was a United Ireland and the only party exiting was Great Britain (Eng, Wales, Scot, plus dependencies). There's already a hard border at Gibraltar, and all other borders are sea-based. The only things really to discuss are the settlement of financial obligations and the rights of citizens.

Passporting, rules of origin, phytosanitary checks, mutual recognition of standards, etc, this all depends on the future relationship, not actually leaving.

Basically the Government had two choices 1) Brexit or 2) Cancel Brexit. They all decided Brexit was unacceptable but they didn't do anything about Bracktrack. Without cancelling Brexit they should have spent time negotiating a future with 100% of the world. Instead they have spent almost all their time on the EU - OK it's 50%. But not 100%.

There were many reasons why they couldn't - not least because the rest of the world had other things to do. India was in but they wanted an FTA with increased FoM to the UK; Japan and Singapore were negotiating with the EU; the USA was talking about tariffs on Bombardier and pulling out of the WTO. And most countries were waiting to see what our trading relationship with the EU would look like before they moved.

The reason they did this is they had not read the Referendum. They were still banging on like they had been for decades wanting a special version of the EU. Right from the start the EU said "We are not creating an AEFTA - Anglo-European Free Trade Association" . That would have been great for us but it was never going to happen. Sadly the Tory Brexiteers are still going for this (see today's news).

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work. And it needed the Government to wait for 5 years before triggering Atricle 50. Once the flight crew failed to initiate those actions, the plane was doomed to crash.

Almost completely agree here. 2+2 years sounds about feasible for a Norway exit, 5+2 years for Canada. With a government and parliament doing their job and rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it, once they'd decided what direction they wanted the UK to go in.

It's this bit though - no matter how valid or correct you think this is, if this was the Leave position before the referendum would it have gained a majority?:

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work.

Part of the reason why we are in this position is because the government is trying to square the circle of "sunny uplands" with the reality of leaving. People in general are lazy and want an easy life; when push comes to shove, if this was presented to them pre-referendum as "a lot of work and some hardship for the less well-off" I don't think there would be the same appetite for it.

[Cirrus]

The only reason the Withdrawal Agreement has taken so long is because of the difficulties surrounding the U.K. border with Ireland and the unique circumstances of the GFA. .

I don't think that is true. That has been the thing everyone has been focusing on recently but if that were magic-ed away then you would see loads of other factors tearing the whole thing apart - UK-EU borders elsewhere, banking passporting etc etc.

Basically the Government had two choices 1) Brexit or 2) Cancel Brexit. They all decided Brexit was unacceptable but they didn't do anything about Bracktrack. Without cancelling Brexit they should have spent time negotiating a future with 100% of the world. Instead they have spent almost all their time on the EU - OK it's 50%. But not 100%.

The reason they did this is they had not read the Referendum. They were still banging on like they had been for decades wanting a special version of the EU. Right from the start the EU said "We are not creating an AEFTA - Anglo-European Free Trade Association" . That would have been great for us but it was never going to happen. Sadly the Tory Brexiteers are still going for this (see today's news).

Brexit (aka Hard Brexit) was a valid idea. It would have been damaging. Not catastrophic, but not pretty. But it needed people to face reality. It needed a lot of work. And it needed the Government to wait for 5 years before triggering Atricle 50. Once the flight crew failed to initiate those actions, the plane was doomed to crash.

[shaunbhoy]

So we as citizens shouldn't be angry with each other but with the government that has done the damage. It's not 'remoaners' vs 'brexidiots' but the government would prefer we vent the frustration and resulting anger on ourselves than them so they can continue to be corrupt self serving duplicitous scumbags pretending to be incompetent buffoons.

Twas ever thus.

It'll be alright in the end, so 'chillax'.

You'll get nowhere on here talking sense like that. Once the Bremaoners get back from changing their underwear they will be all over it like a cheap suit.

[darmstadt]

Feck that, I'm buying baked beans & shotgun cartridges.

You can never have too many shotgun cartridges.

I wonder if there'll be plenty of tinned unicorn in Tesco's.

Amazon is your friend:

https://www.amazon.com/ThinkGeek-Eas.../dp/B0089KZPNU

[BlasterBates]

No deal is no problem.

[jamesbrown]

Slight logic failure there.
CUK expats won't be hit by failures in the supply chain, gammons like you will.
But then you're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

Weak.

[sasguru]

We should prioritise the supply of comfort blankets, Rosacea supplements and bedtime stories to CUK expats.

Slight logic failure there.
CUK expats won't be hit by failures in the supply chain, gammons like you will.
But then you're not the sharpest tool in the box, are you?

[sasguru]

It's high time the adults took the helm.

If you mean Brexiters, they've all minced away because no one wants to be associated with the pain that's to come.

[Old Greg]

This is a code monkey forum. We should hit that requirement with a software sledgehammer. Allow me write it up for admin in the behavioural style:

Given a People's Vote that results in brexit
When the expats of CUK become terribly upset
Then we should restrict access to all CUK expats from the CUK mince subforum

You really do need a snowflake safe space away from the clever meanies!

[jamesbrown]

Well you see, there was this referendum, only advisory mind you, however a number of people voted Leave and some voted Remain and this has now caused a great tension across the country. Mind you, there are people who voted Leave but then changed their mind and want to Remain and I suspect that if the result had been the other way and people had actually voted properly after doing a bit of research and having a bit of foresight, this sub-forum and the bitterness would not exist.

This is a code monkey forum. We should hit that requirement with a software sledgehammer. Allow me write it up for admin in the behavioural style:

Given a People's Vote that results in brexit
When the expats of CUK become terribly upset
Then we should restrict access to all CUK expats from the CUK mince subforum

[Hobosapien]

...people had actually voted properly after doing a bit of research and having a bit of foresight, this sub-forum and the bitterness would not exist.

That assumes the remain and leave arguments would be clearly presented with no obfuscation, manipulation, or outright lies by either party, backed by an impartial media that would give concise facts about the state of things and what the effects of remaining or leaving would be.

Not a bloody chance.

So we as citizens shouldn't be angry with each other but with the government that has done the damage. It's not 'remoaners' vs 'brexidiots' but the government would prefer we vent the frustration and resulting anger on ourselves than them so they can continue to be corrupt self serving duplicitous scumbags pretending to be incompetent buffoons.

Twas ever thus.

It'll be alright in the end, so 'chillax'.