Reply to: HMRC Fine

[Taita]

That's per HMRC guidance. The actual LAW doesn't include directors as a category of people who need to file. It's HMRC basing their guidance on their wish list, kinda like they do with the Business Entity Tests.

Never assume HMRC are right. They publish their interpretation of the law, which isn't always correct.

Thanks for the clarification Clare. My comment is based on what the layman should do in the event of not having the benefit of professional advice such as your own. Most would be ill advised to take on HMRC unaided!

[pappel]

Hi,

There is a bit of background to this query but the short version is that I was given a SA letter after 31/1/14 for the 2012-2013 tax year. The letter stated I needed to complete it within 3 months of the date of the SA letter, which I did and I also paid my tax bill within those 3 months (it wasn’t actually tax but student loan payments). HMRC have now fined me for paying my bill after 31/1/14. I could argue I didn’t know what I had to pay until I completed my SA.

Does anyone have an opinion on whether it is worth disputing this? It’s not a great deal of money but I would prefer it in my pocket.

I am afraid this is your responsibility to do it on time and correctly.
I'd say it is better not to dispute, especially if it is a small amount.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

That does imply that the OP should have done one anyway, whether they were a director or not - they had a tax liability which needed to be self-assessed, so they needed to do one.

Reading it again, I agree. I'd be interested to know what exactly the fine was for, but OP seems to have gone quiet. According to HM Revenue & Customs: Tax return deadlines and penalties you have 6 months from the end of the tax year to notify HMRC that you owe tax and they will adjust your tax code or request a SA as appropriate.

Although that same page also seems to indicate that the payment due date can also be after 31st Jan if they request a SA from you after 31 October. *shrugs*

[TheFaQQer]

Yep, nothing special about directors. This is just HMRC procedure. I think this is the relevant part of the TMA:

Taxes Management Act 1970

That does imply that the OP should have done one anyway, whether they were a director or not - they had a tax liability which needed to be self-assessed, so they needed to do one.

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

The fine appears to be for late payment, not late filing

The fine appears to be for late payment, not late filing according to the first post.

[northernladuk]

Nice that you have spent all that time looking in to the threads I posted and come to the conclusion that what Taita put isn't completely true and could have found the same looking through the history as you did.

I appreciate the time you spent on it though TF. Very commendable.

Threads gone to the dogs so that's me done.

[jamesbrown]

Yep, nothing special about directors. This is just HMRC procedure. I think this is the relevant part of the TMA:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...tion/7/enacted

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

[TheFaQQer]

Read what TCP put and read some of threads in the link I put and you will realise that you look a little bit silly now.

Oh, if you read a few of the links in your search results, you also get this gem:

You could try using google and go read the basics on the HMRC website.

Whoops - the basics on the HMRC website (as shown in this thread) say that as a director you need to complete a self assessment.

Feel silly yet?

[TheFaQQer]

I'll let you two sort it out.

Nothing to sort out between Clare and I - I was just asking why one should look silly because they read the HMRC website and believed that rather than what a stranger wrote on the internet.

If you look at the first thread in the search results that you link to, you see this:

You should have informed HMRC that you needed a tax return, the onus is on YOU to contact them. Give them a call and tell them you're a director of a limited company - 0845 9000 444. You're supposed to register within 3 months of becoming a director. HM Revenue & Customs: Registering for Self Assessment

If you started in March 2010 then you should have filed a tax return for 2009/10, which was due at HMRC by 31 January 2011. If there was no tax to pay then you can appeal any penalty and they should reduce it to zero.

Might be an idea to talk to an accountant too

Which is somewhat different from this:

That's per HMRC guidance. The actual LAW doesn't include directors as a category of people who need to file. It's HMRC basing their guidance on their wish list, kinda like they do with the Business Entity Tests.

Never assume HMRC are right. They publish their interpretation of the law, which isn't always correct.

All that shows is that even the professionals (at some stage) believed the HMRC website was correct - and even advised that people might need to take professional advice to see the same thing.

To try to make out that a contractor looks "a bit silly" for making the same mistake that professionals have made is more than a bit silly.

[TheCyclingProgrammer]

Read what TCP put and read some of threads in the link I put and you will realise that you look a little bit silly now.

To be fair, as TheFaQQer pointed out, the HMRC website *is* misleading and many accountants also believe that director's have a legal requirement to file.

Most accountants on here will recommend registering as there will often be a good reason to besides being a company director. But if, for example, you were a director of a company with no shareholding and no remuneration (including expenses) and all of your other income was taxed at source, there would be zero point (or legal requirement) to register as you'd just be filing a nil return each year.

For the record, the only (legal) reason to register for self-assessment is if you are chargeable to tax. More specifically, if you're chargeable to tax you have a legal requirement to notify HMRC - this may not result in having to register for self-assessment if the amount of tax is below a certain threshold as HMRC may be able to adjust your tax code instead (which results in less hassle for everybody).

[northernladuk]

How silly Taita must feel believing the HMRC website rather than just taking the words of random strangers on the internet at face value

Up until very recently, some of the accountants (including those who have posted in this thread) have said the same thing (that a director needs to complete a self assessment) only to be corrected by TCP. Maybe you should go through all their posts which said this and tell them that they look silly?

That's per HMRC guidance. The actual LAW doesn't include directors as a category of people who need to file. It's HMRC basing their guidance on their wish list, kinda like they do with the Business Entity Tests.

Never assume HMRC are right. They publish their interpretation of the law, which isn't always correct.

I'll let you two sort it out.

[TheFaQQer]

Read what TCP put and read some of threads in the link I put and you will realise that you look a little bit silly now.

How silly Taita must feel believing the HMRC website rather than just taking the words of random strangers on the internet at face value

Up until very recently, some of the accountants (including those who have posted in this thread) have said the same thing (that a director needs to complete a self assessment) only to be corrected by TCP. Maybe you should go through all their posts which said this and tell them that they look silly?

[northernladuk]

HM Revenue & Customs: Do you need to complete a tax return?
Directors are required to complete a tax return.

Read what TCP put and read some of threads in the link I put and you will realise that you look a little bit silly now.

[Clare@InTouch]

HM Revenue & Customs: Do you need to complete a tax return?
Directors are required to complete a tax return.

That's per HMRC guidance. The actual LAW doesn't include directors as a category of people who need to file. It's HMRC basing their guidance on their wish list, kinda like they do with the Business Entity Tests.

Never assume HMRC are right. They publish their interpretation of the law, which isn't always correct.