Reply to: Need to start on Tuesday, Limited company+VAT+Bank A/C set-up

[cojak]

I went for a interview and was introduced to a few people and he was one of them and it was his last day. He was also from the same agency as me.

Ah, right.

[mekool]

What do you mean
How did you 'see' this?

Are you on-site already??

I went for a interview and was introduced to a few people and he was one of them and it was his last day. He was also from the same agency as me.

[cojak]

What do you mean

Also, I saw another contractor (I am his replacement) leaving within 4 weeks of start - same agency.

How did you 'see' this?

Are you on-site already??

[TheFaQQer]

So, do I need to explicitly "opt-in" if I do not wish to "out-out". He kept asking me if I wanted to "opt-in".

No. The default position is that you are always in, unless you opt out in writing before being introduced to the client. There isn't a concept of opting in, but don't expect an agent to understand that.

(2) I am slightly wary of the clause "The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.". Will this mean I can't leave the gig a few months down the line?

Yes

Can I negotiate on the termination clause?

You can certainly try. Some clients insist on this, though, so you have to decide whether you want to accept the clause or walk away from the contract.

(3) Also, want to understand how much the agency makes from the daily payment coming from the client.

Why? What the client pays the agency really is nothing to do with you - agree a rate that you are happy with, and don't worry about what you can't control.

Should I just go with the first agency and keep my word (I haven't signed anything).
Or, should I go with the best rate.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. The grass is always greener on the other side (until it turns out to be moss, of course).

Do what you want to do - asking a bunch of strangers how you should operate your business and run your life is a path that you really don't want to go down - you may as well let dice rule your life.

And to add even more confusion, another company on my doorstep where I interviewed for a perm position around 2 weeks ago, have come back to me and said they have finished interviewing all candidates have narrowed down to 2 people and I am one of them. This is a perm position, with job title of a manager and paying around £75 k per year + benefits. This was my first preference as I do not have to travel to London, but they went silent for 15 days.

If you want to be a permie, then you should go for the permie role. If you don't, then don't. If you are looking at EUR60/hr rates, and those are the norm for what you do, then a £75k permie role looks pretty good.

If you really want that option, then you need to negotiate your notice period to get out of the contract so that if the offer ever arrives, you could jump. That said, if they are prepared to pay you £75k, you'd think that they would be prepared to wait a month or so to the end of a contract to make sure they get the person they really want.

[mekool]

Some very good info here, thank very much everyone..very helpful and very much appreciated.

Things have progressed ahead, I may not be able to start on Tuesday as I want to get things done correctly and not sign up anything haste.

(1) When I mentioned to the agent that I wish not to opt-out of the "Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003", he asked me - so you want to opt-in then? And then followed up with the usual "no one else opts in, everyone else opts-out" and then mentioned I will need a copy of your passport if you wish not to opt-out.

So, do I need to explicitly "opt-in" if I do not wish to "out-out". He kept asking me if I wanted to "opt-in".

(2) I am slightly wary of the clause "The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.". Will this mean I can't leave the gig a few months down the line? I believe such a situation will not come hopefully that I will have to leave midway but its scary not to have an exit clause whereas they can terminate the contract anytime. Can I negotiate on the termination clause?

Also, I saw another contractor (I am his replacement) leaving within 4 weeks of start - same agency.

(3) Also, want to understand how much the agency makes from the daily payment coming from the client. I have been trying to negotiate the daily rate, but the agency says that they are keeping only 50 pounds everyday and there is no further room for increase. When I pushed hard I was given a 30 pound increase on the daily rate after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing. When I asked about their (agency's) margin I was told that the client has now increased 15 pounds on the daily rate and they are only keeping 35 pounds each day. Can a big agency like HN operate on such a low margin? I am not sure if what the agent is saying is true or is this just another trick in the book.

(4) I have been looking for a new role for one month and nothing much was happening, and suddenly almost everywhere I have interviewed recently have come back with a positive response. I got an offer to do contract work in Germany for 60 EUR per hour, after reading horror stories and complexities about the German tax system on this forum - I decided to politely say no - the agent moaned and cried a lot though. To add more confusion, I have another offer in 'The City' and the rate may be better than this one(I will get to know soon). Both clients are big multinational companies and the other agency is HAYS.

My head is aching and I am sitting here at half one in the morning not sure what to do.

Should I just go with the first agency and keep my word (I haven't signed anything).
Or, should I go with the best rate.

And to add even more confusion, another company on my doorstep where I interviewed for a perm position around 2 weeks ago, have come back to me and said they have finished interviewing all candidates have narrowed down to 2 people and I am one of them. This is a perm position, with job title of a manager and paying around £75 k per year + benefits. This was my first preference as I do not have to travel to London, but they went silent for 15 days.

I need to make a decision soon, any guidance will be very helpful.

Thanks again!!

[northernladuk]

I'd guess that "the Contractor" is a term defined in the contract corresponding to the limited company or umbrella company that the poster is operating through.

Yeah that is what I would expect as well but a very good point and to watch out for.

[TheFaQQer]

Contract should be between agency and yourCo, not agency and you.

I'd guess that "the Contractor" is a term defined in the contract corresponding to the limited company or umbrella company that the poster is operating through.

[mudskipper]

I'd say get the accountant first, then they can guide you through the rest.

When I incorporated (a few years ago) Santander (Abbey as they were then) were able to set up my business account straight away over the phone as I was "electronically verifiable", so if you need it urgently it could be worth checking out.

(2) Termination - It says something like this - In addition to standard Ts & Cs - the agreement may be terminated for convenience by <the Agency>) (either party serving xx days written notice on <the Contractor>). The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.

Contract should be between agency and yourCo, not agency and you.

Please take the advice and get it reviewed, especially if you are intending to operate outside IR35.

[riffpie]

Harvey Nash were generally one of the better agencies I worked through, but they were also by far the most pushy when it came to not opting out. It was probably the specific pimp rather than actual policy, but I had a massive staring contest with one of their guys about not opting out. He tried every trick in the book to persuade me, from the old "every other contractor just opts out", to the "we need to issue a different contract" to the "we'll need to see your degree, meet you face-to-face, see your birth certificate, and get two references" routine. I just agreed to fulfil every stipulation they put in my way. Eventually he out-stared himself, and said "Oh this is ridiculous, I know who you are, let's just get the contract signed!" and that was that. It's all just bluff and bluster, ignore it.

[TheFaQQer]

(1) How do I avoid the “Opt Out” of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003.

Tell them you aren't opting out.

It is very much in the contract and if I ask the agency to remove this they may not agree and point out that this is fairly standard.

Negotiate so that you don't opt out unless you want to. If they force the issue, then you either back down or walk away. We recently had an agent on here state point blank that they would not allow you to opt out of the agency regulations.

(2) Termination - It says something like this - In addition to standard Ts & Cs - the agreement may be terminated for convenience by <the Agency>) (either party serving xx days written notice on <the Contractor>). The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.

Sounds reasonable to me - they can give you notice, but you can't terminate the contract.

BTW, what exactly is a fairly standard termination clause for a 6 or 12 month contract?

There's no such thing. I've had contracts where the client can give 0, 7, 14 or 28 days notice. I've had contracts where I can't terminate, or have had to give 7, 14 or 28 days notice.

[riffpie]

Regarding Cater Allen, their online banking is pretty, um, basic, but they really come into their own when something goes wrong and you need to actually talk to them. I've rung them fairly late in the evening, and been answered immediately by someone professional who can actually deal with my call right away, rather than some call centre bod in another country who runs through a tedious script that solves nothing, before putting me on hold or something.

[kevpuk]

'Notice' periods vary from gig to gig, but don't forget that there may well be scope to negotiate on contract terms too. My current contract allows client to give me 14 days 'notice', but I would be required to give 30 days.....I am pretty sure that there was something in the original draft along the lines of me not being able to terminate, which I said was unsuitable and wanted changed.

[northernladuk]

I have done some more search on the forum and have found answers to some of the questions, here is what I am left with:

(1) How do I avoid the “Opt Out” of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003. It is very much in the contract and if I ask the agency to remove this they may not agree and point out that this is fairly standard.

Long thread discussing this in detail here..

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...-2003-act.html

(2) Termination - It says something like this - In addition to standard Ts & Cs - the agreement may be terminated for convenience by <the Agency>) (either party serving xx days written notice on <the Contractor>). The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.

I am left baffled by (2), all I have at the moment is a contract template from the agency so am not sure what will be in the final contract but I am pretty sure they will try and put conditions favourable to them and think that I will not notice.

I would say the devil is in the details. 'Something like' isn't really going to help us with a detailed answer. Notice period is a moot point anyway as they can get rid of you there and then if they really want to by withdrawing the work so you don't get paid.

BTW, what exactly is a fairly standard termination clause for a 6 or 12 month contract?

I remember another agency sending me an email just before the interview:

The rate agreed for the position above is £xxx per day on a 7 day non-reciprocal notice period, (i.e. if you are successful, you will not be able to give any notice to <Client>, you will be required to stay on site for the full duration of your contract).

There is no standard. It has to be less than a month else you are going to have an IR35 issue. Apart from that there are are all sorts of periods given. In some cases the contractor cannot give notice.

How come you are starting in less than 2 days and you still only have a template? They are not expecting you to sign the template are you? You need to start pushing hard as you need the final one to send to QDOS for review and you are going to have to pay for the one day turn around. I would say you are pushing it to do it properly for a Tuesday start now.

[mekool]

I have done some more search on the forum and have found answers to some of the questions, here is what I am left with:

(1) How do I avoid the “Opt Out” of the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations 2003. It is very much in the contract and if I ask the agency to remove this they may not agree and point out that this is fairly standard.

(2) Termination - It says something like this - In addition to standard Ts & Cs - the agreement may be terminated for convenience by <the Agency>) (either party serving xx days written notice on <the Contractor>). The Contractor may not serve notice under this Agreement.

I am left baffled by (2), all I have at the moment is a contract template from the agency so am not sure what will be in the final contract but I am pretty sure they will try and put conditions favourable to them and think that I will not notice.

BTW, what exactly is a fairly standard termination clause for a 6 or 12 month contract?

I remember another agency sending me an email just before the interview:

The rate agreed for the position above is £xxx per day on a 7 day non-reciprocal notice period, (i.e. if you are successful, you will not be able to give any notice to <Client>, you will be required to stay on site for the full duration of your contract).

[Craig at Nixon Williams]

I want to post a few questions on some content which I do not understand in contract template document from the agency, am I allowed to copy and paste? I will of course remove any personal information (there is none anyway as this is just a template).

I'm pretty sure I've seen people do this before, I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong though!

If it is questions about your contract, you would be better taking advice from a professional rather than strangers on a forum in my opinion.

Craig