Reply to: My Last Contact Double Paid Me...Now They Want It Back!

[Taita]

Firstly, it's not theft. It is known as unjust enrichment. Secondly, contrary to the howling from the unwashed there is a defence. It's known as Change of position, there's a lot of stuff out there on the internet, however you can read about it here. That is an article for an American Law Review, but it does concern the English position. There are better articles out there, but you would have to pay for them.

The basic concept is that you'd have to argue you've put yourself into a 'worse' position due to you receiving the unjust enrichment. The fact that you are now worse off than before is not a defence, there needs to be a link between the additional money and you being worse off, for example you received an extra £1000 in your pay and thinking it was a bonus, you proceed to invest it in shares that then take a tanking and you lose the money. You'd really need to consult legal advice if arguing that and be prepared for the other side to sue you. If they win, as it is >5K you would be liable for all costs, however if you won they would be liable for yours. If it proceeded to court, the other side would claim interest on the figure as well, calculated daily from the date of the overpayments.

To conclude, you have done nothing that is morally wrong. If, as you state, you honestly had no idea you were being overpaid then you there is an argument that you should not be liable for their mistake. To use as an example, a bank overpays you £25000 into your account. You notice it and before you can report it to the bank your account is hacked and the £25000 is stolen. Does anyone here honestly think that the person in question should still be liable for the £25k?

OP, perhaps you should negotiate with the other side? Advise you'll pay back half the money over a period of time.

Agreed. There is a defence in favour of the OP's position. However, it revolves on genuinely not knowing that he had undeservedly been enriched. That would involve believing that there was a reason to expect additional payment - a bonus perhaps. However, there was absolutely no reason for that in this case and as a reasonable, intelligent human being there is also a duty of care. Finally the legal doctrine of genuine mistake could be invoked. This allows the maker of a mistake to reasonably recover their loss. The offer of an instalment plan could cover this.

Leaving the legal position aside, I am encouraged by the outrage here at the OP's presumption that he has some right to profit from another's genuine error. If somebody finds his wallet in the street are they legally entitled to its contents because he was careless enough to lose it?

[BA to the Stars]

If the OP gets a CCJ, they can forget contracts in the financial sector (assuming they would apply there). Why cut off a potential stream of clients (who provide a large % of contracts).

Still, with financial management like that, they may get a top job

[IR35 Avoider]

Talking about not keeping track of your pay, I was reading some book on what life's like working in the City, and the author commented that some people only stay on in their jobs because they want access to top notch information/data feeds for their personal trading. One guy was investigated by the police after an HR error meant his salary was for several months paid to someone of the same name who'd left the company. The police thought he must be in cahoots with the other guy, because how could someone not notice they hadn't been paid their salary for several months? The guy genuinely had so much money and cared so little about his salary that he simply hadn't noticed.

[deanosity]

Is it coincidence that your name means 'Good night' in Greek? You seem to be as bad at managing your money as they do.

I wonder if he is Greek? Probably not, It's not like they have a reputation for spending other peoples money and not wanting to pay it back.

[psychocandy]

I'm not sure your conscience should really be clear, relying on them to dock it from your wages is not the same as trying to give them a cheque.

???

Seriously? I phone payroll and tell them "you've paid me £1000 extra this month instead of the other mr p. candy. What do you want to do about it?"

They say "OK, sorry about that, we'll just take it out next month". "OK fine be me" says I.

Next month - "Ummm, remember that £1000?" Payroll people - "Oops. We'll definitely do it next month"

Same again.

So if it was you, you'd write out a cheque for £1000 and take it down there? Sod that.

[Nut]

Absolutely pay it back. If not for the moral/legal reasons but don't burn bridges. You may want to work for the firm or the staff elsewhere.

[d000hg]

I'm not sure your conscience should really be clear, relying on them to dock it from your wages is not the same as trying to give them a cheque.

[psychocandy]

Bit different though isn't it, you attempted to pay it back and they failed to recover it. At some point you have to say ok and keep it. Big difference to "not knowing" you had 3 extra deposits in your account totalling £7000!!!

Yeh. With that one I think the payroll person in the company decided themselves to keep that quiet and let it slide rather than admit they'd made the cock up in the first place. suits me.

But then again same permie company managed to cock up my tax every year without fail. Not the best.

[psychocandy]

Bit different though isn't it, you attempted to pay it back and they failed to recover it. At some point you have to say ok and keep it. Big difference to "not knowing" you had 3 extra deposits in your account totalling £7000!!!

Yep. Conscience is clear on that one.

Agency did same to me last year. I told them - they didnt do anything. 3rd time they did do it which was lucky for them because that was their last reminder! Bit gutted about that ;-)

[JamJarST]

Got overpaid £1000 permie salary once. It was meant for guy in company with same name as me.

Spoke to payroll. They said they'd deduct it next month - they didn't. Spoke to them again, same thing happened. 3rd time - same again so I gave up.

Left the company a few months later and never ended up paying it back....

Bit different though isn't it, you attempted to pay it back and they failed to recover it. At some point you have to say ok and keep it. Big difference to "not knowing" you had 3 extra deposits in your account totalling £7000!!!

[psychocandy]

Got overpaid £1000 permie salary once. It was meant for guy in company with same name as me.

Spoke to payroll. They said they'd deduct it next month - they didn't. Spoke to them again, same thing happened. 3rd time - same again so I gave up.

Left the company a few months later and never ended up paying it back....

[FiveTimes]

To conclude, you have done nothing that is morally wrong. If, as you state, you honestly had no idea you were being overpaid then you there is an argument that you should not be liable for their mistake. To use as an example, a bank overpays you £25000 into your account. You notice it and before you can report it to the bank your account is hacked and the £25000 is stolen. Does anyone here honestly think that the person in question should still be liable for the £25k?

OP, perhaps you should negotiate with the other side? Advise you'll pay back half the money over a period of time.

Yes you are are still liable for the 25k, however the 25k that was hacked out of your account would be returned by the bank if it was reported as fraud.
This 25k would then be returned from your current account and back to the bank.

Granted the bank are out of pocked to the tune of 25k but thats due to fraud

[northernladuk]

I found that a very interesting post. Does that apply to amounts owed to HMRC generally?

In particular I might owe HMRC at some point due to section 58. I was under the impression I had 3 years to pay it back or else? I am unlikely to be able to pay in 3 years - and would far prefer to pay it off as soon as I can rather than face possible bankruptcy.

<cringes awaiting the "read the first timers guide" or "google it" or "fook off you newbie" comments>

To be honest I don't really know and thinking about it now a govt system isn't really a reflection on a private case either but thought I would just throw it in for discussion. I was trying to find a few cases I have seen in the news about HMRC paying some scroat a huge amount by mistake and he went straight out and spent it but couldn't find it.

[BrilloPad]

Yep that is what I thought, I remember a number of cases where HMRC have paid massive amounts to people by mistake who went out and spent it and they demanded their pound of flesh back on ridiculously tiny payback amounts but they didn't write a penny of it off from what I remember.

I found that a very interesting post. Does that apply to amounts owed to HMRC generally?

In particular I might owe HMRC at some point due to section 58. I was under the impression I had 3 years to pay it back or else? I am unlikely to be able to pay in 3 years - and would far prefer to pay it off as soon as I can rather than face possible bankruptcy.

<cringes awaiting the "read the first timers guide" or "google it" or "fook off you newbie" comments>

[Mich the Tester]

He can plead mental incapacity.

Would he still have to plead mental incapacity if it's bleeding obvious to everyone in court anyway?