Reply to: Days off / holidays etc?

[kingcook]

Some contractors dont bother and do whatever the clients ask for in terms of forms etc.

They are the one's who are caught by IR35 (and i'm not saying that's the reason why they would be caught - just that their attitude to contracting would land them in it)

Some contractors like myself are sceptical to use a permie leave form but cross out references to staff etc. To be honest in my current client project everyone has to use a holiday form but i cross out terms and sections not applicable.

Personally, i would have words with the client. Remind them about the downside of IR35, not just for you, but for them aswell. i.e. If you were ever investigated and found to be an "employee", the client could become the "employer", making them liable for employer NI taxes, holiday pay, redundancy (maybe?)

[diesel]

You say dont use permie forms, but depends on what client protocol is and what other contractors do. Some contractors dont bother and do whatever the clients ask for in terms of forms etc.

Some contractors like myself are sceptical to use a permie leave form but cross out references to staff etc. To be honest in my current client project everyone has to use a holiday form but i cross out terms and sections not applicable.
i usually ask my client in advance i am taking so such a day off, if this okay? but in return i tell them i can be flexible over the holiday season if they dont mind me taking days off at short notice.

[northernladuk]

You really are a ray of sunshine! Having to ask for holiday like an employee could easily be argued as an IR35 problem by HMRC, I bet it even goes on some holiday register too with all the other employees. You are not always right and being obnoxious and giving bad rep doesn't make you right.

At least get your arguement right. My reply was in response to

Well they are dictating your working practices making you be on site all the time.

You mention asking for holiday which we have covered and if your read back I have agreed it is a flag so needs handling carefully. Your comment is around making you be on site all the time and dictating your working practice so nothing to do with asking for holiday. The comment above is about ALLOWING you to have time off which is as I covered in my explaination.

If you have made your point badly I apologise but making you follow permie policy to apply for holidays and the issue of you not being allowed to take it are two different things.

I give neg rep because the advice as you worded it is not correct.

I make such a issue about a tiny point as you can see from the comment below Psycho is being mislead by it

Obligation sort of thing? i.e. the client is making you be there all the time....

[psychocandy]

You really are a ray of sunshine! Having to ask for holiday like an employee could easily be argued as an IR35 problem by HMRC, I bet it even goes on some holiday register too with all the other employees. You are not always right and being obnoxious and giving bad rep doesn't make you right.

LOL. I didnt think ole' NLUK was too bad this time......

Its not asking though is it. Its making sure the client isn't upset about your unavailability to deliver a service at that time. Dunno what the client does with the info but they may well add it to a list or project plan etc. But then again if wanted some 3rd party company in to do some other work that'd possibly be on the project plan too....

Yeh. I'm beginning to see that legally I could rock up one day and say unavailable these two weeks - like it or lump it. Nothing client could do at all since. But then again theres nothing stopping them saying ok fair enough one weeks notice off you go. (Then again because theres no obligation to provide work they could just tell you to go on the spot, couldnt they? No obligation and all that?)

[psychocandy]

You couldn't make this stuff up!! The client saying you can't have time off due to workload is nothing to do with IR35 and working practices. Any supplier can have this challenge put on them and we cannot force a client to let us go when we feel like it. He has a project to deliver and the impact on the business is the factor.

This is a business level arguement not a working practices one. If you really want to try and pin some IR35 tag to this you could say it works in your favour as a permie can take a holiday when he wants (roughly) as they are legally obliged to give him holiday. A supplier can be forced to work through as there is no obligation to honour holidays.

I think NLUK is right here. After all, you could hire a builder to build an extension for you. If he then half way through says he aint availanble for two weeks you could tell him to cancel the order.

[JamJarST]

You couldn't make this stuff up!! The client saying you can't have time off due to workload is nothing to do with IR35 and working practices. Any supplier can have this challenge put on them and we cannot force a client to let us go when we feel like it. He has a project to deliver and the impact on the business is the factor.

This is a business level arguement not a working practices one. If you really want to try and pin some IR35 tag to this you could say it works in your favour as a permie can take a holiday when he wants (roughly) as they are legally obliged to give him holiday. A supplier can be forced to work through as there is no obligation to honour holidays.

You really are a ray of sunshine! Having to ask for holiday like an employee could easily be argued as an IR35 problem by HMRC, I bet it even goes on some holiday register too with all the other employees. You are not always right and being obnoxious and giving bad rep doesn't make you right.

[northernladuk]

Obligation sort of thing? i.e. the client is making you be there all the time....

Well they are dictating your working practices making you be on site all the time.

You couldn't make this stuff up!! The client saying you can't have time off due to workload is nothing to do with IR35 and working practices. Any supplier can have this challenge put on them and we cannot force a client to let us go when we feel like it. He has a project to deliver and the impact on the business is the factor.

This is a business level arguement not a working practices one. If you really want to try and pin some IR35 tag to this you could say it works in your favour as a permie can take a holiday when he wants (roughly) as they are legally obliged to give him holiday. A supplier can be forced to work through as there is no obligation to honour holidays.

[JamJarST]

Obligation sort of thing? i.e. the client is making you be there all the time....

Well they are dictating your working practices making you be on site all the time.

[psychocandy]

Not to mention a big red flag when it comes to IR35.

Obligation sort of thing? i.e. the client is making you be there all the time....

[JamJarST]

hmmm. Yeh its a difficult one this contractor absence thing. If you put your foot down and say I'm unavailable then its going to upset the client and affect your chance of a renewal.

Then again, from the clients point of view, they've commited to a budget of paying for you, so they want you there as much as possible. And they dont have to keep you happy like a permie because you're just a resource.

I guess its all about compromise etc and the contractor needs to take client needs into consideration, but the client must agree that contractor aint going to be there all the time. To expect that is unreasonable.

Not to mention a big red flag when it comes to IR35.

[psychocandy]

I did a role a couple of years ago at one of the major banks - had 2 full weeks off in 15 months, one of them being over xmas. Also cancelled a weekend break at one point. When I did ask for a 2 week holiday they said no, so I left. One of my best moves ever and no regrets.

hmmm. Yeh its a difficult one this contractor absence thing. If you put your foot down and say I'm unavailable then its going to upset the client and affect your chance of a renewal.

Then again, from the clients point of view, they've commited to a budget of paying for you, so they want you there as much as possible. And they dont have to keep you happy like a permie because you're just a resource.

I guess its all about compromise etc and the contractor needs to take client needs into consideration, but the client must agree that contractor aint going to be there all the time. To expect that is unreasonable.

[kaiser78]

My approach is this, I rarely take holidays during contracts and never during the first 3 months. In the last 5 years, the only holidays I've taken in almost continuous work, are the bank holidays and Christmas to New Year break.

If I do need any time away, I always tell the client my work position (up to date no meetings scheduled, no matters requiring urgent attention, appropriate people briefed regarding current position etc) and that I will not be in the office on the relevant days.I never 'ask' the client for permission for time off as that's direction and control in my book.

With the market how it is these last few years, I think it is unwise to take unpaid time off when you can be out of contract and not earning for quite a few weeks.

But you check cover availability of colleagues during this time,yes, being professional and all that ?

[kaiser78]

I did a role a couple of years ago at one of the major banks - had 2 full weeks off in 15 months, one of them being over xmas. Also cancelled a weekend break at one point. When I did ask for a 2 week holiday they said no, so I left. One of my best moves ever and no regrets.

[BolshieBastard]

Seems that contracting has changed quite a bit in the 10 years that I've been out of it and back as a permie.

How are clients with days off / holidays these days? Obviously, you dont get paid but when I last contracted you were treated same as permies - request time off and it gets OKed as a permie would.

Or have things changed a little and they client expects none/few holidays during a contract?

Saying that though, as an employee of your own company, arent you forced by law to give yourself a minumum amount of holidays per year? Does that have any affect?

I guess it could get you into trouble even if you didnt want to take the holidays?

My approach is this, I rarely take holidays during contracts and never during the first 3 months. In the last 5 years, the only holidays I've taken in almost continuous work, are the bank holidays and Christmas to New Year break.

If I do need any time away, I always tell the client my work position (up to date no meetings scheduled, no matters requiring urgent attention, appropriate people briefed regarding current position etc) and that I will not be in the office on the relevant days.

I never 'ask' the client for permission for time off as that's direction and control in my book.

With the market how it is these last few years, I think it is unwise to take unpaid time off when you can be out of contract and not earning for quite a few weeks.

[jmo21]

What is all the fuss about? "I'm going on holiday at such and such a time - let me know if that is going to be an issue?"

Last year I went on holiday which was technically for the first 2 weeks of a renewell, I managed to get the new contract to start from when I came back from holiday - 2 weeks extra on the end of the contract - simples.

I quite often do this as well.